Episode 67

What can make a beauty brand unique is often the founder’s story. There’s a trust and connection that just happens when you know hey – there’s an actual human behind this product! Often times those products are created to address an issue a founder has personal experience with, and for this episode’s guest, Francesco Clark, the origins of Clark’s Botanicals targeted exactly that. Except it wasn’t acne or the realization of a market white space that led him to the helm of his company – it was a near-death experience that left him paralyzed 16 years ago. “For me, when my skin stopped sweating after I had my spinal cord injury,  everything went wrong with my skin. It looked like I was hyper-aging. It was dry but it was oily. It looked like I was developing rosacea.” So he teamed up with his doctor dad to create a solve, and in the process, made not only something tangible that could help others, but a whole new way to emerge from the traumatic aftermath of of his accident.

AnnouncerWelcome to WHERE BRAINS MEET BEAUTY™ hosted by Jodi Katz, Founder and Creative Director of Base Beauty Creative Agency.
Jodi KatzHey, welcome back to the show. This episode features Francesco Clark. He's the founder of Clark's Botanicals. We had quite a funny time together, so I hope you enjoy this episode. If you missed last week's show, it featured Kristy Engels, the SVP of marketing at the Beauty Strategy Group and Beauty Barrage. Enjoy the show.
Jodi KatzHey, everybody. I am so excited to be sitting with Francesco Clark. Did I do that wrong?
Francesco ClarkYeah.
Jodi KatzFrancesco, you are the founder of Clark's Botanicals. Thank you for having us here today.
Francesco ClarkThank you for having me with you.
Jodi KatzThis is super exciting. I want to tell our listeners how I know you and know your brand. I met you for the first time ... I think it was like a year ago at an industry event. We talked about doing the podcast and it didn't happen. Then finally, it is happening. That's really exciting. I think that's one of those patient ... Just be patient, Jodi, which I'm not. Are you patient?
Francesco ClarkNo. It's like Linda Evangelista. Like, "I don't get out of bed for less than $10,000 a day." Yeah. I'm the middle child, so I'm patient and inpatient at the same time.
Jodi KatzOkay. If we talk about the Bradys ... Did you watch The Brady Bunch growing up?
Francesco ClarkLittle bit.
Jodi KatzYou're like Marsha.
Francesco ClarkWell, it wasn't all about-
Jodi KatzNo, Marsha is the oldest one.
Francesco ClarkIt was like Marsha Marsha Martha.
Jodi KatzJan.
Francesco ClarkYeah.
Jodi KatzYou're Jan.
Francesco ClarkA little bit. I think I've evolved. I'm now like a hybrid of Marsha and Jan. Yeah.
Jodi KatzOh, because Marsha is a little bit bossy?
Francesco ClarkYeah, you already know me. Yeah. It's like a minute into the podcast and you know me already. Yes, I'm a little bit like Marsha and Jan. I'm a little bit bossy, but I also like other people to chime in. A little bit of both.
Jodi KatzRight. I watched a lot of Brady Bunch and Happy Days. A lot of Happy Days.
Francesco ClarkI was more like 90210, Melrose Place. Remember Models Inc.?
Jodi KatzNo, but I think you might be a little bit younger than me. 90210 for me was senior year of high school. We would all get together and watch these shows then they launched. Like 25 of us. Were you in middle school then or elementary school?
Francesco ClarkYeah, middle school.
Jodi KatzYeah. 90210 is basically everything that my life is about. Then it became of course Sex and the City when I was in my 20s in the city.
Francesco ClarkBrenda is I think my spirit animal. If I were to be reincarnated as a character on TV, I would have been Shannen Doherty in 90210.
Jodi KatzBrenda Walsh. Would be dating Luke Perry? Would that still have happened?
Francesco ClarkI think it would have changed the plot a little bit. I would have been more ... I don't know. A little bit more spicy.
Jodi KatzHave you seen the show Riverdale?
Francesco ClarkNo, I haven't.
Jodi KatzOkay. I just started watching it last night and I feel like I need to watch high school TV. This is what my whole life is about is watching shows made for 15-year-olds.
Francesco ClarkThe Marvelous Mrs. Maisel is who I would like to be all the time. It's like Joan Rivers before she was famous is the way that I'm interpreting the show. Plus, her style is like ... Oh my god. Cynthia Rowley and there's a little bit of Isaac Mizrahi when he's doing cabaret and then there's a little bit of comedian music. There's just so many different aspects of fashion, beauty, comedy, music and then she's a spitfire intellectual that I would ... She is the person that I would like to be.
Jodi KatzShe's challenging the norms everywhere she goes, right?
Francesco ClarkYeah.
Jodi KatzIt's so timely.
Francesco ClarkI want her to be right next to me. I want her to be right next to me in character at all times. You have your angel on your left shoulder and then your little devil on the right, but I would just go to her as, "Look. You're my angel. I'm a devil." Or angel outfit and then devil outfit. Outfits of her.
Jodi KatzIt's so funny because I get casting notices from backstage because that's where we do castings for work. One of them was for extras in the show. You had to come with a certain type of hair and a certain type of ... What else did they ask for? Come made up in a period style. For two seconds, I was thinking to myself, "Should I do it?"
Francesco ClarkDid you?
Jodi KatzNo. It takes time to make the effort, but a little part of me was like, "That would be so freaking cool to be a telephone operator on that show." That's what the role was.
Francesco ClarkThat would be my profile pic on Facebook, Instagram, OkCupid, Tinder. It would just be my profile pic everywhere. Yeah.
Jodi KatzMaybe there's an opportunity to get you a role as an extra.
Francesco ClarkI would die.
Jodi KatzYou know the department store or something where she works?
Francesco ClarkYeah. I don't know. Are we throwing this out there into the universe right now?
Jodi KatzWe are. Well, I think it's just a phone call away, honestly.
Francesco ClarkReally?
Jodi KatzI think everything is a phone call away. It might be a phone call and then another phone call and then another phone call. Then being patient and waiting a year, but yeah.
Francesco ClarkMaybe it's 20 people on the phone before it gets back to me, but no, I would die. I would die. I would love it. Yeah. Her, Rooney Mara, Cate Blanchett are my top three.
Jodi KatzOh, you're making your mix? Your dream team?
Francesco ClarkYeah.
Jodi KatzLet's talk about something that's not on TV.
Francesco ClarkOkay.
Jodi KatzWell, you're on TV. Let's talk about how you spent your day today. It's the afternoon in June. What did you do today?
Francesco ClarkWe're preparing for our next one-hour show on QVC for our new product launch, which I'll talk about later. Then I was literally getting ready in the car on my way down here because there was so much traffic that I get dressed in the car and I do skincare in the car as I'm coming down because I don't have time to get ready at home and then just listen to the radio in the car. Every minute has to be productive.
Jodi KatzYou're putting your tie and jacket on in the car?
Francesco ClarkYeah, and skincare and brushing my teeth.
Jodi KatzNo.
Francesco ClarkYeah. I'm not even kidding. Yeah, I have the Sonicare Diamond whatever. It's the dark gray one. It's like a jackhammer in your mouth, but I am brushing my teeth within the first five minutes of being in the van. Then I'm pre-moisturizing. Toning and I'm moisturizing. I'll use our deep moisture mask after our cellular lifting moisture mist and then our smoothing marine ... It's specific steps depending on where you are in the van on the car ride down to the office in Manhattan.
Francesco ClarkI realize that is a little bit OCD. It's not, but it kind of is. I'm like, "This is when you have to stop brushing your teeth. This is when you have to start moisturizing. This is when you start putting on your shirt and this is when you start getting your hair gelled." Whatever. That's what I do. Every minute is doing something.
Jodi KatzWell, has there ever been a time where there was no traffic and you flew in and bits and pieces of this routine were not accomplished in time?
Francesco ClarkI get a little bit pissed off when I'm early somewhere. I never want to be late, but if I'm early, I'm like, "Okay. Well now I'm here and it's half an hour before whatever meeting." Then I'm like, "Well, what do I do now?" Then I always have my iPad with me. Then I'll just start getting work done that I missed earlier.
Jodi KatzWhy is it so frustrating to you to have 30 minutes to spare?
Francesco ClarkBecause I had my spinal cord injury and you have this feeling of loss of control when you can't move your fingers. You can't get up from the wheelchair and do whatever you want, whenever you want, that when you do have time to do something, it has to be meaningful and productive. Having a near-death experience for me makes me much more cognizant of the fact that time is fleeting. Use your days and your minutes wisely. That's not just for work. It's also like you have two days off. Spend it with people that you love. Do something more meaningful. Make a ripple. Making a ripple in the water and making a difference is something that to me was put in the forefront of my mind.
Jodi KatzRight. When you have this extra time, it feels like a little bit more of a loss of control because your day should be scheduled to be maximum benefit for you?
Francesco ClarkGoing back to Marsha Marsha Marsha, using The Brady Bunch metaphor ... Yeah. In a way, it's just always the way that I was growing up. My parents are both only children and my mom has her PhD. My dad has an MD. It was always like me having a disability right now was never an excuse. They never talked to me. My family--my sister or my brother or my parents--never speak to me like, "Well, how will you get this done?" It's more like, "What are you doing next?" Me having a spinal cord injury was never ever part of the conversation. It was more like, "Okay. It's Sunday or Saturday. What do you have planned for the week?" That is my entire life I feel like in a nutshell.
Jodi KatzRight. When you have these moments of free time, which I'm sure there's really not that many of because there always is traffic here, would you consider taking that free time and turning it into moments to breathe or meditate?
Francesco ClarkI do meditation every night as I'm going to sleep. My ex-boss from Mademoiselle, Suzanne Colón, actually just wrote a book called The Yoga Mind, which is not about yoga, but it's about being in the yoga mindset. I learned the three-part breath when I was in the ICU with her. I was told by the surgeon that I would never breathe or speak or move my arms clearly. He was wrong because I don't shut up. Learning how to breathe on my own and then learning how to speak was very much taking my mind out of the hospital and out of the ICU and finding a safe place somewhere.
Francesco ClarkGrowing my sense of existence to where I wanted to be and that sense of imagination and creativity. Thank god I had that before. Thank god I lived in my own world before I had my spinal cord injury because I was able to transport myself somewhere more creative than a doctor telling you that, "You would never do this. You would never do that." I was like, "No. Screw that. I'm going to make my own rules," kind of thing.
Jodi KatzWhen you transport yourself in your head or you visualize, is it always the same place or is it different moods and feelings evoke a different journey for you?
Francesco ClarkI'm glad you asked, actually. I started doing EMDR exercises, which uses post-traumatic stress disorder and looking at the part of your brain where it's typically stored. With PTSD, it's store in the other part of your brain. You have triggers in your brain that will make you feel like you're back in shell shock. With EMDR, they're using talk therapy and sound and or light therapy. It's the only FDA-approved way of dealing with PTSD that does not use medication. For me, I started using it in a way where I would imagine ... My anniversary was actually on Friday of my injury. I look at it as a very happy event now because I'm just celebrating being alive.
Jodi KatzRight. How many years ago?
Francesco Clark16 years ago. Yeah. Sweet 16. I was using EMDR in a very atypical way because I would use sound with my therapist and talking through being in what is my safe place. For me, my safe place is ... This is supposed to be personal to everybody. You have your own safe place. For me, it was when I was on vacation with my family in Hawaii on the beach. Then you have a guiding person or thing or animal. It could be anything. It could be your best friend. It could be a family member. For me, it was my dog growing up, JJ, because he was this regal Chow Chow that we had for 12 years. My dog for me was perfect because it's not going to talk back, but it's always there.
Francesco ClarkAnimals are unconditional love. Just having something there that you love and loves you back. They could be sleeping. It doesn't have to be expecting a conversation. It could just be you relaxing. A different scenario is you're always imagining being on that beach in Hawaii. The conversation is always changing. The first time that I was on QVC, I was like, "How am I going to navigate this experience, where I have to perform?" I only had eight minutes. How do you get your dollars per minute to a level of productivity and still be sane on camera and relatable and true to yourself? Not turn bright red and start crying. I was imagining being in Hawaii while I was on camera.
Jodi KatzIs JJ standing in the sand with you?
Francesco ClarkYeah. There's this huge tree. I actually went to this beach. There's a 200-year-old tree that's growing right on the border of the beach and the grass. There's a little deck out there. I'm laying on this lounge chair and he's just laying down right next to me.
Jodi KatzVisualizing that gets you into this calmer state, I guess.
Francesco ClarkYeah. You visualize being this calmer state. You have to practice over and over. While you're doing that, you're doing the three-part breath that I learned in the ICU. Bringing your breath down to the base of your ribcage and then the middle part of your ribcage and then the top part. It moves you out of that, "I'm so freaked out," kind of breathing. That's hyperventilating quasi that it brings you back to center. Then you bring in Hawaii and then you bring in, "Okay. Let's bring us back down to who we are." Relaxed and natural. It just feels like this is the truest part of yourself whenever you normally might be freaking out.
Jodi KatzIt's been working for you?
Francesco ClarkI mean I hope so. I don't know. You tell me.
Jodi KatzWell, how did the QVC show go?
Francesco ClarkThe first time I was on air, we sold out within six minutes.
Jodi KatzWow.
Francesco ClarkI was on with Lisa Robertson. She was just like, "Well, we're sold out. We're going to take the mic off you right now." I'm like, "I have two more minutes left." I didn't know how it worked if you did sell out. They just undid my breaks, threw me off. I'm sitting there like, "I'm not done. I have two minutes left." Six times in a row, we sold out time after time after time that it felt good. It's funny because when you're going through it, it felt like ... It really did feel like the movie Joy with Jennifer Lawrence, where the lights turn on and you're like, "Okay. Now the dream kicks in and I don't know what I'm going to say in the next eight minutes."
Francesco ClarkIt's almost like the out-of-body experience happens because before you go on air, you're like, "44 million people are watching." If you don't perform, you might not be invited back because at the end of the day, you understand they have to make money and you have to make money. Somebody else could be in your slot. My point of view is always like, "What can I do better? How am I of service to anybody that wants to buy skincare or anybody that likes the beauty industry? What makes Clark's Botanicals different?" I really think of that point of difference and the point of relevance that it's just ... For me, it's my life. They're like, "Make it quick, but meaningful and heartfelt." I'm like, "All right." Then you just kick into the core of who you are and your DNA. Hopefully people understand.
Jodi KatzWhat is that answer? What is that I guess elevator style pitch of summarizing everything that is you that's squeezed into these products?
Francesco ClarkClark's Botanicals is all about bringing your inner voice outwards. It's all about this luminosity and healthy glow to your skin, where for me ... I used to work in fashion. When I had my spinal cord injury, I didn't care what I looked like because I felt like I was the overachiever growing up and then I dove into a pool. Then I felt like the biggest idiot in the world. Like I had the word 'idiot' on my forehead. I felt like I had become such a worry to my family and my friends that the opposite that I wanted to be was a worry. I would shave my head bald every week. I wore the same T-shirt every day, same paper hospital pants every day. I wouldn't leave the house and I wouldn't leave the physical therapy room from the hospital.
Francesco ClarkMy friends would be like, "We want to come see you." "No, I'm busy. I'm doing therapy." I wasn't that busy. I also felt this enormous sense of guilt to what I had put everybody through. A part of that was dealing with trauma. I think it's a very normal part of your psyche to go through this deep depression that I went through for three years, where I completely neglected myself. One of the first signs of depression is not having any sort of self-care. You don't shower for a week or you don't look at yourself. You don't care about the way that people see you because you also don't care about the way that they see you. You don't care about that human interaction.
Francesco ClarkBeing human, what I've learned, is all about that connectedness that we have to other people or any other person. I completely shut myself off from that. The day that that changed was the day that Christopher Reeve passed away because he was the biggest advocate for other people with spinal cord injuries. He was my advocate. The day that he passed away unexpectedly, I remember Barbara Walters and Diane Sawyer were talking about it on the radio as I was going to Kessler, New Jersey to do physical therapy. They were just like, "Nobody knows how it happened, but he tragically passed away." I'm like, "But he's Superman." He was my hero even before I had my injury and now he's gone.
Francesco ClarkWhile I was in physical therapy that day, I started to think, "Well, what about me taking accountability for what happened in my life?" For the first time in three years, I looked in the mirror and I didn't look like myself. I said, "You know, I want to be part of society. I want to be part of the conversation that's going on anywhere. Whatever way that I can contribute, I want to contribute. I wanted to be an advocate for people that feel like they don't have a voice, don't feel like they have a sense of power. Not just for spinal cord injury survivors, but for anybody.
Francesco ClarkIt was more about inclusion. I didn't want people to just come up to me and say, "What happened? Why are you in a wheelchair?" I want somebody to come up to me and say ... Talk to me because I look energetic and optimistic. She's cracking a joke, he's cracking a joke and I crack a joke back. You want that basic human feeling of being wanted. Everybody wants that.
Jodi KatzRight. You're talking about the desire to feel connection, right?
Francesco ClarkAbsolutely. Yeah.
Jodi KatzYou're saying all this and you're a super handsome guy.
Francesco ClarkThank you.
Jodi KatzThinking about how the conversation has gone so far, we went full circle. You've been grooming your way in the car and then telling me about historically ... For three years, you ignored yourself, right?
Francesco ClarkYeah.
Jodi KatzYou were clearly able to move yourself forward with the energy and spirit that you have. It sounds like that's what you're bottling up, right? More than the products. More than the goop. It's this energy.
Francesco ClarkYeah. As much as a customer or anybody that hears about Clark's Botanicals might resonate with that emotional story of how Clark's Botanicals started ... Literally from a hospital bed at my house with my father and my mother and my sister. If the products don't work, it doesn't matter. For me, when my skin stopped sweating after I had my spinal cord injury, everything went wrong with my skin. It looked like I was hyper-aging. It was dry but it was oily. It looked like I was developing rosacea. I tried the $500 creams, the $5 creams, prescription, over-the-counter. My father is a traditional medical doctor and I'm a homeopathic doctor.
Francesco ClarkI turned to him and I was just like, "None of this is working. You have to help me." The brand started from my hospital bed in what used to be our living room and our kitchen in Brownsville in Westchester, New York. I mean that's literally how the brand started.
Jodi KatzLet's talk about the product because we have some products in front of us. I use the deep moisture mask. No, we don't have that one in here.
Francesco ClarkYeah.
Jodi KatzThat's the one that I'm really loyal to it. So much so that when a promo email came in that was like 25% off, I'm like, "Yes!" I'm one of those people, but I don't use it as a mask. I use it as a moisturizer. I don't wipe it away. I don't even want to wipe it away.
Francesco ClarkNo, thank god. That's so good to hear because a lot of our customers ... The deep moisture mask was an eye-opening product for me because it was intended to be put on your skin for 20 minutes. You can rinse it off or wipe it off. Brides-to-be would have their makeup artists say, "Use this as a night cream." Then we would get emails. I would actually get the emails and I would write back. They were like, "Well, why does it just have to be for my wedding? Can I use it every night?" I'm just like, "Yeah, of course." "Can I also use it as a daytime moisturizer and just leave it on?" Because it goes on clear and it's not shiny. I'm like, "Yeah, you can totally use it. Just use less." Then it become one of our top three products in the line.
Jodi KatzYeah. I do it night and day. Although I only started in I guess the fall, so I haven't gone through a summer. Maybe I would cut back. I don't know. If I was bubbling up too much on my face when I'm sweating, but I really love it. Love it, love it, love it. I get a lot of products for free, so I don't buy a lot of stuff, but it's one of the things I use my own money for.
Francesco ClarkThank you.
Jodi KatzWhich is exciting.
Francesco ClarkYeah. That's the best testimonial.
Jodi KatzYeah.
Francesco ClarkOne of the things that I was dealing with last year and the year before that is when we sold out of three products all at once. It's such an honor for people to be like, "How dare you to be out of stock of this product and this product? I can't live without it." I'm like, "Well, that's nice." That actually is a sign of the formulation working and us working overtime to get into production for those products, but thank you.
Jodi KatzYeah. I'm sure you get a lot of products for free, right? When you spend your money on something, I really, really love it. The other thing I spend my money on is [inaudible 00:27:03] hand cream. Shea butter hand cream. I used to work there and I used to get it for free. Then I left the company and I'm like, "I am willing to spend money and it's expensive on this because it's phenomenal."
Francesco ClarkYeah.
Jodi KatzLet's talk about something else. I found out that jasmine absolute is a key ingredient in the products and I love jasmine. Is that maybe why I love the product?
Francesco ClarkNo. I don't think that's the only reason why. Jasmine absolute is a proprietary mixture of essential oils and extracts from the jasmine flower. The enzyme that's released in the flower as the sun is coming up makes the petals close. That is good for the skin. When we mixed it with the essential oils and the other extracts from the flower, it was the only thing that worked on my skin to rebalance my skin. It brought my skin back to healthy and glowing. I don't know. I felt like it looked better than it did before. We went through four years of testing of different botanical mixtures that we could use.
Francesco ClarkThis is the way that I grew up with my mom and my dad, was we take vitamins every day. I get blood tests done twice a year to see what vitamins are deficient in my body. The vitamin concoctions that I take every morning are based on what I need. It's not just a generic kind of, "Oh, take this Centrum whatever multivitamin." This is a cocktail of vitamins, but if you need antibiotics, my dad does a little bit of both. It's the best of science and the best of nature. When we started to do that with jasmine absolute in Clark's Botanicals, for me, it was just very obvious.
Francesco ClarkNow there's a whole new clean movement in beauty that's about what's good for your body and how do you get rid of toxicity or how do you not include toxic ingredients in formulations. That was just always obvious to me. The one thing that I'm struggling with right now is when you're buying one product with one ingredient because then you have one hyaluronic acid product, probably three vitamin C products, and then you're buying a moisturizer, but then you're buying a cream moisturizer. Then you're buying a heavier moisturizer. You're buying these products now that are becoming so basic to the point that it's like that Zoolander scene. Like, "Water is the essence of moisture." You're like, "Wetness is the essence of moisture." Everyone is like, "I don't have time to put on 18 products in a row."
Francesco ClarkFor me, when I think about deep moisture mask, I think about glucosamine and HCL. I think about Japanese green tea extract. I think of high concentrations of the jasmine absolute. I think of dehydrated algae microspheres. I think of active ingredients that the jasmine absolute is a catalyst for that makes them work beyond what a regular algae extract would do. It's almost like you're making your botanical ingredients superhuman in a natural way. They're working beyond their earthly limits. It's becoming a hero product because you're like, "This is the thing that works."
Jodi KatzYeah, I love it. There's some products that I tried. I'm like, "I'm going to put it in the garbage can." Right? I'm sure you do the same. It's awesome to find something that you love. Our last topic before we close out, I want to talk about the 10th anniversary of the brand because it's a huge milestone for a brand, but also for you personally as an entrepreneur. Right? Does it feel like 10 years?
Francesco ClarkNo. It's the craziest thing. It feels like in the blink of an eye, I started from not knowing how I would pay my bills the next day for everybody that I was working with to now having this team of people that I work with that we don't live in a hierarchical kind of way. We're all in the same field. When we sit at a table in a meeting, there's nobody at the head of the table. We're all right next to each other. It's such an honor to work with people that worked at the biggest beauty companies, who wanted to work with Clark's Botanicals, who fight so much for everything that they believe in that it proves to me that they care about the brand just as much as I do. How do you get somebody who works with you to be just as passionate about something as you? It's so hard to find.
Jodi KatzIt needs to be baked in. I don't think you enforce it.
Francesco ClarkNo. I agree. You cannot enforce that at all. I feel like it's such a learning experience for me. I have this thing with imposter syndrome, where you're like, "What am I doing in this room in charge of a meeting? Hello. Thank you for coming, everybody." I'm sitting there like, "They know about skincare and the beauty industry 10 times more than I do." For me, I go into every single meeting and experience as I am the biggest idiot in the room, but I'm also so willing to be proven wrong and I'm willing to learn. My goal is to build a team of people that are very eager to speak up in descent of whatever conversation is happening, but they have to have proof of why. I'm so willing to learn from their experience, but I want to know why.
Francesco ClarkI love it. I wish we could tape this during one of our meetings because you would see it becomes this ... It's like a debate. It's like a beauty debate and skincare debate. When we go through formulations, ingredients and everything that has to do with launching a product and messaging, we are all so passionate that it's the perfect place to be and it all works together. You can't have an organ missing from a body because then the body is just not going to work. You think about there's a complete synergy of why each ingredient is in each product in Clark's Botanicals, and the same thing goes for why each key player is working with this loud mouth founder that's in every meeting. Everybody is just as integral to each other.
Jodi KatzWell, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us today. Our listeners will have many notes that they've been taking during this episode. It's really awesome.
Francesco ClarkThank you.
Jodi KatzFor our listeners, if you liked this episode, please subscribe to our series on iTunes, write a review and learn more about the show on Instagram @wherebrainsmeetbeautypodcast.
AnnouncerThanks for listening to WHERE BRAINS MEET BEAUTY™ with Jodi Katz. Tune in again for more authentic conversations with beauty leaders.
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