Episode 53

 

“Networking”. It’s a word that can conjure up ideas of aggressive, winner-take-all, shameless self-promotion, yet it’s supposed to be the most effective way to find new work and useful connections. In this episode, guest Caroline Fabrigas, CEO of Scent Marketing and Co-CEO of Scent Invent, offers up a new definition of networking, one she says is more about “Putting out a hand instead of taking one.” Plus, she shares her tips on where to draw the line between work and family when you work with your spouse – at home, to boot.

Announcer

Welcome to Where Brains Meet Beauty, hosted by Jodi Katz, founder and creative director of Base Beauty Creative Agency.

Jodi Katz

You’re tuning in to the episode with Caroline Fabrigas, she’s the CEO of Scent Marketing, she’s a client and friend. And if you missed it last week, check out that episode with Margarita Arriagada, she’s a consult and the former chief merchant of Sephora and coincidentally, Caroline is the one who introduced me to Margarita. I hope you enjoy those shows.

Oh, and one more thing. This episode is sponsored by BabbleBoxx. BabbleBoxx is an integrated influencer marketing agency, run by my very good friend, Sherri Langburt. They’re best known for their innovative co-sampling programs. BabbleBoxx creates a competition free, theme based sampling program, that places your products in the hands of social media influencers, who are guaranteed to post, Pin, Snap, Tweet and share your message. I trust Sherri and so should you. Enjoy the show.

Welcome back everyone to Where Brains Meet Beauty, I’d like to introduce you to Caroline Fabrigas. She is the CEO of Scent Marketing and the co-CEO of Scent Invent, welcome to Where Brains Meet Beauty.

Caroline Fabrigas

Oh, thank you, so good to see you and so delighted to be here.

Jodi Katz

I’m so happy that we’re doing this together. And I would like everyone to know how we met ’cause I think this is important, an origin story. So, Wendi Burger, who’s the founder of Pour le Monde Fragrances, introduced me to you and your business partner, Abby. And Wendi’s an incredible connector, so generous as a connector, and you are such a generous connector.

Caroline Fabrigas

Thank you.

Jodi Katz

And I’ve learned about connecting from both of you, so I’m so incredible, it’s so incredible for me to be sitting here with you and you’ve taught me so much and I’m just so delighted to have you as guest on the show.

Caroline Fabrigas

Well, likewise, likewise. It was great to meet Wendi but then you came along with the package, it was … it was extra bonus.

Jodi Katz

So, let’s start with something simple, how have you been spending your day today?

Caroline Fabrigas

Oh, gosh, what a great question. So, I’ve been spending my day today following up with all my wonderful scent marketing clients who are just so eager to have their candles and their room sprays, that’s what happens when you have a signature scent that works so beautifully in the environment. The guests and the customers wanna take it home with them. And I’ve been spending some time with Abby this morning on ScentInvent Technologies, we have our Linger Fragrance Primer, so we’ve been having a distribution meeting this morning. And also talking about a new fragrance brand that we have in the works.

Jodi Katz

Oh, that’s exciting.

Caroline Fabrigas

It’s been a busy morning but here right on time for you, ’cause this was very important to me.

Jodi Katz

So, let’s talk about scent marketing because I don’t know that this is a brand that many people know about ’cause he it’s very insider. So can you tell us what this?

Caroline Fabrigas

Oh, my pleasure. So, scent marketing is the art and science of using fragrance as a brand enhancer. It can be ambient, it can be in the air, you don’t see it, you don’t feel it, but you smell it and it changes the way you perceive the environment or the brand. The hospitality industry really garnered this early on, they understood the power of it. And now, all these years later, it’s starting to become mainstream. I didn’t start the company, it was started by my late husband, Harold Vogt, who was an advertising executive. And he was really an early adopter in understanding the power of scent to be able to create that ultimate backdrop against which your brand plays and against it really enhancing everything you do.

Jodi Katz

So, are you allowed to say who your clients are?

Caroline Fabrigas

Yes, absolutely, I’m proud to say who some of our clients are. We started with Hyatt Hotels, Hyatt Place, my late husband, Harold, created the signature scent. This was 10 years ago, so this is also, you know, a wonderful testament to the loyalty that happens with scent marketing. It’s so beloved that people just keep repeating it and doing it over and over, it’s endemic to the brand. We’ve got on to work with the 1 Hotel, which is in Miami, for those of you who have been to South Beach, you might have seen the hotel or certainly smelt it. We have The Baccarat Hotel and Residences here in New York and that’s also led us to scent the six Baccarat retail stores in the US.

We’ve also just created the signature scent for the Triton Hotel in San Francisco but we also work with H&M and Calvin Klein. And we also work in the fitness space with Physique 57 and Ride Bicycle Studios and Powerhouse Gym in Fort Lauderdale, so we really get to work across a lot of wonderful industries and with some of the world’s best brands.

Jodi Katz

So, I would imagine that if I’m a retailer or hotel, can you scent a restaurant?

Caroline Fabrigas

Yes, and we are working on a very, very famous restaurant here in New York right now, to remain nameless, but you’ll know it when I come back and tell you. Yes, in the foyer, it’s a wonderful thing to set the ambience for the beautiful meal you’re about to have.

Jodi Katz

Right, so, if I am a marketer for any of those types of organizations and I’m not leveraging scent marketing, I’m really missing out on a revenue generator not just an experience, right? Like this turns into product not just experience?

Caroline Fabrigas

Yes, this is what we’ve uncovered. You know, when I inherited the business from my late husband when he passed away unfortunately, at a young age of a heart attack, I didn’t know at all what to do with it. I had to learn the business from scratch and as I learn about ambient scenting, the art and science of that, I quickly realized the incredible impression that it makes upon the guest or the customer. And they naturally started to say, “How can I take this home?” And I’d never made a candle before or a room spray, I was always in the skincare business. And so, I quickly had to learn how to find those right resources.

And suddenly, before you know it, you have this burgeoning candle business. And it creates obviously a sale for my company but a wonderful revenue stream for my client. And it’s this wonderful circle of everybody really winning.

Jodi Katz

Yeah, it’s the best reminder of your experience, right? To take that fragrance home with you and have it in your bathroom, your bedroom, wherever it is that reminds of that time in the restaurant or that at the gym, right? That motivation at the gym or that feeling in the morning of like finishing a work out, whatever it is. You know, obviously scent is all about memory, right? And here’s a great opportunity to make more memories.

Caroline Fabrigas

Absolutely, there’s so many studies that actually showed that in the presence of scent a brand’s value is enhanced or a product’s value. The memorability of a brand, when you smell that brand through the olfactory lens as opposed to see it, the visceral response, the speed at which you remember the brand is much faster. And all in all, it really just sort of adds to the entire loyalty factory of somebody wanting to come back and do it again.

Jodi Katz

Right. So, if we can go back in time a little bit, and at the time before your husband passed, and I’m sorry to hear that he passed.

Caroline Fabrigas

Ah, thank you.

Jodi Katz

You were in our business but not at all fragrance, this was his business and you had your own work and it was completely separate?

Caroline Fabrigas

Yes, totally separate, absolutely separate. I was so lucky to have risen up through the ranks of this beautiful beauty industry, so many wonderful helping hands along the way for me. And I became the senior vice president of marketing for Clarins and then the SVP of Group Business Development. And I was living my dream and working in the skincare industry, obviously Clarins does have make-up and had some fragrance but skincare was really the core, and running the marketing department and working with DiorTV and really, you know, maintaining that number four position that Clarins had at the time in the prestige skin care industry. And my late husband was an entrepreneur and starting this really early stage business of scent marketing, he was really a pioneer in this space.

Jodi Katz

So, if we can just stay in this topic a little bit more, so this unfortunate tragedy happens to your family and then you’re faced with what to do about his business, is that what happens?

Caroline Fabrigas

Yes, I was not involved in his business and for the first couple of years after he passed, I had full-time work that I was very committed to and so, I didn’t know what to do. But I inherited it in the will and had a responsibility to obviously some of his clients, so I hired some consultants, I consult now, I hired consultants to help me and I think sometimes in a business, using that strategy is very, very helpful. It allowed me to breathe, to know that’s others were carrying on his great work while I could really determine if this was a business that I wanted to build or how I would to go forward. Ultimately, I concluded it was something that I was passionate about and kind of just counted on myself, that I would figure out what it would take to build it and I’m happy to say that we have, in the last several years, been able to build it quite nicely.

Jodi Katz

That’s incredible. Now, let’s just shit gears a little because you have a lot of balls in the air, right, you juggle many, many things. Can you tell us about ScentInvent and what you do there?

Caroline Fabrigas

Oh, yes, so ScentInvent was sort of an outgrowth in what we do in scent marketing, and when my late husband passed away, Abby, who is a business friend, but she’s also a neighborhood and personal friend, came to my arms, to my rescue, and she helped with scent marketing early on, is one of the people that sort of advised. And we both really collaborated and found not only do we enjoy working together, which is so important, but we found that we had a love of scent, really through the consumer lens. And we both sort of looked and each other and said, “We really love scent but why does it always need to be a spray? Is there something beyond the bottle?”

And with this question in mind, we went to see my late husband’s chemist and chief technical officer who would collaborate with him. And we posed this question to our chemist and he came up with lots of different interesting forms and when I looked at them I realized with my skincare expertise and experience, that there just might be another way to think about delivering fragrance. And so for the past several years, we’ve been in the lab, being the nutty scientists that we can be, and thinking about that. And under ScentInvent Technologies, we did launch Linger Fragrance Primer, one of the world’s first fragrance primers to help any fragrance last longer, which was invention unto itself. And along the way, we’ve discovered some other very unique forms that we’ve put under a special brand that we’re going to be premiering shortly. So, that’s how I’ve ended up in the world of fragrance and now in the world of on the skin and lifestyle fragrance.

Jodi Katz

And, so you are entrepreneur times two, how do you decide how to split your time?

Caroline Fabrigas

Well, I’m very fortunate in having Abby as a partner, Abby Wallach, because Abby is spending most of her time on ScentInvent and that allows me to be able to take care of my family business in Scent Marketing. And so, Abby and I have very different skill sets, I think that’s very important in any partnership, we compliment each other. Fundamentally, we have the same shared values as female entrepreneurs and mothers, hard working women, but we also very different skill sets so, when I need to perform my skill sets I do and then the rest of the time she’s carrying on the day to day. I’m very lucky in that regard.

Jodi Katz

Right, so you have Abby as a partner on one end and then you’re working with your new husband on the other side, right, with Scent Marketing?

Caroline Fabrigas

Yes, yes, I still do think of his as new, although we’ve been married seven years this year, I hope we’re not gonna have the seven year itch. He’s wonderful, I was very fortunate to remarry, I think when you’ve had a wonderful marriage, you know what that looks like, and so I was very fortunate to remarry. And my husband, Alex, was in the restaurant business and hospitality and has a wonderful flare for making people feel at ease and so he learned, also, the scent marketing business and is our, basically our director of all things commercial and operations and helps the mechanisms of the business work day to day, and does a great job.

Jodi Katz

So, I’m sure we have a lot of listeners who are either in business with their significant other or thinking of starting a business with their significant other, what advice would you give somebody who’s about to embark on that journey?

Caroline Fabrigas

I think it’s a thoughtful journey. I think it’s really important to make sure that you do keep things very separate. And so, not only your living spaces should be separate, so if you’re working from your home office, to make sure that that office has a door that you can close. That things are kept in different places and to keep your conversations separate so when you’re working together, you’re working, and when you’re having family time, you’re having family time.

And that can come down to the discipline of even setting the days and the hours that you’re going to speak. We have a big whiteboard at home and we put our goals down on that so we can stare at it every time we go up and down the stairs. And close that door to the office, and I mean, I think the best advice I can give is ultimate respect, you know, I have such respect for what my husband does and I really, even though I own the company and inherited it and am the CEO, I have great appreciation for him and I empower him to do what he does well. Identifying what each of you does well.

You know, if Abby and I have certain skills sets, my husband and I have certain skill sets. Capitalize on what he really does well and what he likes. And then I actually find that allows me to do what I really like to do and probably am better at.

Jodi Katz

What part of it do you think you’re better at and that you love the most?

Caroline Fabrigas

I think where I really find myself just having that thought, and maybe you’ve had this thought, Jodi, you know when you do something and just no time exists? Like time is suspended, you don’t realize that it’s going by because you’re so enamored by what you’re doing. And, for me, it is the scent development, for me it is the understanding all the brands’ intrinsic DNA, it’s understanding a brand’s essence and being able to articulate that and to create the brief that then a master perfumer can interpret and create that ultimate signature scent. That, for me, when I do that, no time exists. And then to be working on that level with the client and that’s really what gets me out of bed in the morning.

Jodi Katz

So, for me, it sounds like the way I think about musicians, right? I can’t play the drums or the guitar or the anything, I can’t compose, like this is a big mystery world to me, around how music gets made, like how human beings are able to create such incredible sounds and put them all together. So would you say in this equation, you’re the composer and the perfumer is the musician? Like, is that sort of what happens?

Caroline Fabrigas

That is so, that’s such a great analogy, you’re so good at that. Yeah, I think of it I think of myself as sort of the scent architect, in terms of, you know, creating the structure. But then, the building has to get built, right? So yes, the instrument has to be played.

Jodi Katz

Right.

Caroline Fabrigas

So, yes, I think there’s a lot of parallel there in what you’re saying.

Jodi Katz

So, let’s go back to talking about the family dynamic when you both work in the same company. Both of you are disciplined enough to, like, let’s say 5:30, you shut the door to the home office and you go into the kitchen and talk with the kids or start making dinner and you’re really not talking about work?

Caroline Fabrigas

Not a hundred percent, because maybe FedEx is at the door.

Jodi Katz

Right, right.

Caroline Fabrigas

We do have a home office, as well. We try, you know, with everything in life you can just try to do the best you can and have that be enough sometimes.

Jodi Katz

Right.

Caroline Fabrigas

And if we find that we’re getting off course and spending too much time, with work invading the family space, we’re quite, quite open and quite good at taking a reality check on that.

Jodi Katz

And will the kids clue you in to that you’ve become too concerned with work in front of them? Do they every say anything to you?

Caroline Fabrigas

You know, they’ve been surrounded by entrepreneurship their entire lives, their dad used to have a home office when he started the company. And they were very, very used to coming home from school when they were very little and going and finding him in his home office. So, they’re very used to that sort of merging of the professional and the family life. And actually, sometimes I find them very helpful to us, as well. So, yeah, you just have to be vigilant.

Jodi Katz

Right, so, I love that when I work from home, my kids come home and they look for me in the office or I shoo them away if I’m on the phone. I’m like, “Shhh,” and I wave my arm. But then I can come down, home office is like tucked away through my closet, so it really is like a bit of a pathway. So I’ll come down the stairs and I’ll see them and hang out with them for a little while. And I feel like it’s so cool for them to see that I can work, and then not work, and then work again and then not work. Because, you know, work used to be so rigid, right? You were at the office or you were traveling. And I love that they see a window into another way and that I created that way, it feels really incredible. But at the same time, it’s really hard to shut my brain down, you know? And stop thinking about the stuff, ’cause number one it is fun, like you said, time passes, you don’t even know what happened.

Caroline Fabrigas

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

And then, you know, I have tendency to obsess about things that aren’t resolved or that are on the list or for whatever reason I can’t get out of my head. Do you have any tricks for a sort of trying to shut your brain down a little bit when it comes to your work?

Caroline Fabrigas

My children are a bit older now, so when their father passed away they were 6, now they’re about to turn 14. So, actually, I find them very helpful to me. They are so incisive, they’re so smart, sometimes they have a better solution to a problem that I do. So actually engage, if there’s something really on my mind, I go, “What do you think about this, this situation?” And, “Oh, Mommy, this is, just do this,” you know? And I’m like, “Oh, yeah, you’re right.” You know? Out of the mouths of babes.

Jodi Katz

Right.

Caroline Fabrigas

So, I think as they get older, it’s actually nice to sort of engage with them. And I find that they are, children are sponges, they’re so observant and I think very inspired, actually. They learn without us realizing and in a healthy way. In fact, my son has actually created his own eBay business, where he’s buying and selling Supreme and Kith, and, you know, I’m sort of like, “How did he learn that? Where did that knack come from?” But I think a lot of has been watching his dad over the years and probably watching us in action and he’s probably even inspired by that.

Jodi Katz

I do love talking about marketing with my kids. My son, who’s 10, is so into Xbox and so into these games. And the games are very smart, I mean, just as smart as beauty marketers. It entices him to make an additional purchase within the game to get something that’s exclusive and one time only, it’s gonna run out, right? So, it feels very much almost like a QVC experience, you know, that you have a limited amount of time, I have a very good price, and you’ll never see this again until maybe next year. So, when he gets all consumed, like, “I need to make this purchase now.” No, you’re not allowed to make that purchase. “But it’s gonna go away and it’s exclusive.”

And I, listen to me talk about this, that these are really good marketers and this what we do in all these different types of businesses, which is try to attract you. And then I do like a little skit, like I’m acting out what’s going on at QVC and they laugh because they get it and they’re going to be very savvy consumers because of it. But it’s so amazing to watch the marketing happen through his eyes ’cause he is really is like, the best consumer of this stuff because he’s doing exactly what the marketers want him to do.

Caroline Fabrigas

Yes, yes, and so he’s learning in the process and you’re learning and then you’re having a chance to discuss it together.

Jodi Katz

Yeah, so I think a lot about actually, like how can I actually bring some of the gaming culture lifestyle, you know, add-ons into beauty? Into beauty marketing because I know we do a lot of it but we don’t do it all, and they’re, I mean, the community around gamers is really like, bigger than around beauty, it’s phenomenally huge worldwide. Let’s bring some of that into our industry.

Caroline Fabrigas

I agree, gamification. Especially because of the on-line world these days and that the gamification of things is the layering of the next level, the next level, wanting to aspire, to achieve, to gain, to be rewarded. And I think that could be a terrific opportunity for many brands in beauty, so let’s do that.

Jodi Katz

Yeah, okay, we’ll do it.

Caroline Fabrigas

Let’s do that together.

Jodi Katz

It’s the community, too, because he’s playing with, you know, 50 other strangers, right, he doesn’t know who they are. And to leave the game feels so intimate to him because he’s leaving those people, he’s leaving the progress, he’s leaving the points behind, if he exits before, you know, X or Y or Z happens. And he’s so invested in that community, I mean to a fault, because he won’t do what I want him to do, you know, outside of that world.

Caroline Fabrigas

That’s a different issue-

Jodi Katz

Right.

Caroline Fabrigas

We’ll have a different podcast for that.

Jodi Katz

But, you know, the sense of community, obviously it exists in beauty but it doesn’t feel as rich and intimate as the experience he has with his gaming community, who are all strangers to him. So anyway, that’s a little bit of an aside, so let’s go back to fragrance.

Caroline Fabrigas

[inaudible 00:21:16] Down there in fragrance, ’cause fragrance is so emotional. I agree with you, we need to talk about that.

Jodi Katz

Yes, yeah. So, you know, I want to talk about connecting because you’re such an incredible connector-

Caroline Fabrigas

Thank you.

Jodi Katz

You’re such a generous connector. And this is kind of new for me, like I really have been a loner for most of my life, like I felt fringe for most of my life, and it’s really only in the past two years, when I started working with a coach and learning about like how to move in the world in a business way. When I really started investing time in this, that I realized that, to make connections you just have to put yourself out there and meet people and connect and they will connect for you and you will connect for them. So, tell me why this seems to come so easy to you?

Caroline Fabrigas

I think that networking is not something I’ve ever thought about as a practical act. For me, collaborating and partnering, and I think if you have gifts, to make them gifts that you’ve been given to give away. I think networking is more about putting a hand out than taking a hand from someone. And for me, I just have so enjoyed and so enjoy this beauty and fragrance industry. And the people in it, for me, maybe it was that I came to the US when I was quite young, have been family for me. They weren’t just colleagues and people I worked with, they really, it’s a very familial feeling for me. And so, networking for me felt like a sisterhood or brotherhood, and it was so wonderful to see people that I knew be able to progress and if I can help them along the way, I would. And, as it turns out, visa versa, you know, particularly when you’re an entrepreneur, you do a bit of help-

Jodi Katz

Right.

Caroline Fabrigas

You know? So, you know, networking for me is just a very organic way of being, not necessarily something that’s a strategy. And networking is not, for me, something that is even in the moment or in the short-term, it’s a life long journey and the people that you need in the beginning, you tend to need in the middle and the end. And it is one big web actually, particularly the beauty industry, it’s so, so important that we support each other and I found wonderful ways to network, to use that word. And through a lot of these industry organizations, I find what you put into them is really what you got out. And I’ve had so much great experience with Fashion Group International or Cosmetic Executive Women and now in the world of business, with the Young Presidents’ Organization, one of the best investments that I’ve made, would be the YPO, for sure.

Jodi Katz

Let’s talk about networking a little bit deeper because I hear what you’re saying and it makes so much sense, but it’s not the point of view that I had coming into it. What I’m hearing from you, it’s not network, you’re making relationships, right? Like the word networking almost doesn’t make sense for the way that you, the value around that, the values you have around it.

Caroline Fabrigas

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jodi Katz

You’re making relationships. I came into this thinking, “I run a business, I’m supposed to find work.” So, I looked at everybody like a piece of red meat, you are a piece of red meat, I’m supposed to eat you, meaning like get your business, right? So, I really had no other knowledge of doing this any other way than being like, “Who am I gonna meet today, who’s gonna get me work tomorrow?” Which is an awful feeling and that’s what I thought this was. And I never really invested any time reading about this or talking to people about it, I didn’t even know that there was something to learn, you know, it was so foreign to me.

So, I wouldn’t do it, you know, it would be really uncomfortable, even though I’m sort of a sociable person, I was just really uncomfortable with the motivation behind it, right? I felt like a slimy sales person. But what I’ve learned through you and other friends who are great at this, is that there is the most fun to be had in our business by just meeting new people. I mean, this is probably one of the best things in my day, is just talking to people, listening to people and that no one is red meat anymore. You know, which is like, how can I help you, how can I learn about you? And the word networking almost doesn’t make sense, it feels fraudulent for what we are actually doing now.

Caroline Fabrigas

I love your freshness, your complete transparent honesty, it’s so, it’s so refreshing, you know, it’s great. And the fact that you came to this realization and how amazing it’s been for you in your personal development and yes, there has to, let’s think of another word for networking.

Jodi Katz

Okay.

Caroline Fabrigas

Because it really is so much about the relationships and the relationships take a shape and a form that one could never imagine. You know, yes, this business benefits to it for sure, but there’s so many other benefits to it that you can’t even calculate.

Jodi Katz

Yeah, the business is so secondary to me at this point in terms of making relationships because what I’ve learned is that I don’t know where the work is coming from, I don’t know where our future clients are coming from, I can’t direct that, right, if I could it would be a lot easier. So, I’ve just given up having, trying to have a sense of control around that and really give that up, it’s gone for me, I don’t worry about, I don’t think about it. And I just focus on like, learning about people, hearing their point of view, talking about funny or weird stories, and then that’s it, and then sharing that with my friends. And it removes so much pressure and pain from the process of just being in our business.

Caroline Fabrigas

Hear, hear. It’s about joy and it’s about fulfillment and if you can fulfill someone else’s dream and goal, then you can generally fulfill your own. It is reciprocal, sometimes not right away. I think the other important part of these enduring relationships is, I’ll just say, you know, I try my best to really not forget, you know, you’re not always a hundred percent, but I try my best to not forget if someone has made a nice connection or someone has done a good deed. You know, you really try to remember where that came from because in the fast paced world that we’re in, it’s really easy to forget who made a connection for you, [crosstalk 00:27:34] ’cause then you’re on to the next and you do get some business from it. But always remembering where that came from is, and honoring that, and being thankful for that and to the person themselves, I think it’s really important.

Jodi Katz

Do you have a trick or a tactic to help you remember?

Caroline Fabrigas

Oh, that’s a good one, no, I actually don’t, it’s just so meaningful to me that I just don’t forget.

Jodi Katz

You know, I’ve-

Caroline Fabrigas

Or try not to forget.

Jodi Katz

Right, you know, I think what happens with me is eventually I remember. So, maybe something exciting came out of a connection and two weeks later I’ll remember, “Oh, I should get back to whoever it was that connected me and let me know,” which I don’t think is too much time to lapse. But, you know, it’s not in that exact moment am I remembering and I would love to come up with a practical tactic for keeping it more top-of-mind, so that I can be very immediate with that note. Because I do respect so much that, the effort that someone made and that connection and value it. And I don’t want to forget or I won’t want to, too much time to go by before I remember.

Caroline Fabrigas

If you create that, I’ll buy into it.

Jodi Katz

Yeah, I mean, maybe it’s just like, I put notes up on my wall in the office. Motivational things or things that- Like, I was calling, I won’t say who, one client the wrong name because I just associated this person with someone else who had a different name. So, I did it once right in front of this client, which is awful, you know, it felt so bad to do that. And then I was on a call where, this person wasn’t on the call, thank goodness, but I used that name again with my team. So I’m like, I need to stop this. So I just taped the person’s name right in front of me in my office, so I see it every single day and I study it, I look at it and I stare at it and think about it, so then I close my eyes and I can see the real name not the name I’m that I’m [inaudible 00:29:25].

Caroline Fabrigas

Right, so you’ve reconditioned, you’ve re-educated yourself-

Jodi Katz

Yes, yes.

Caroline Fabrigas

[crosstalk 00:29:29] Good, that’s a great technique.

Jodi Katz

So maybe there’s another sign that I could put up on the fridge-

Caroline Fabrigas

Possibly, yeah.

Jodi Katz

Put up in my office.

Caroline Fabrigas

I think, you know, it’s hard to do, but when you think of something, you know, writing it down.

Jodi Katz

Yes.

Caroline Fabrigas

We’re so into our phones and our computers and typing and I see it with my children, there’s something about the act of writing something down with your hand and a pen, everything is connected through your nervous system. And I think the act of writing something down with a pen, literally, in your handwriting, almost helps it to become more ingrained, at least I find that for myself. So, I think there’s something there in terms of definitely writing something down and if posting it up helps, and sometimes just writing it down helps me, too, to remember better.

Jodi Katz

I think when I have a Sharpie marker in my hand, things change. When I have a pen, my handwriting’s really sloppy and messy and I have like carpal-tunnel-y problems, so my handwriting just looks like, it’s messed up. But when I have a Sharpie in my hand, there’s something about, like a sense of crafting and creating, where I think I’m more intent, so that is always legible. So maybe that’s what I need to do when it comes to connecting, pick up that Sharpie, write it down-

Caroline Fabrigas

Yes.

Jodi Katz

So it doesn’t look like a jumbled scrap of paper like that.

Caroline Fabrigas

Yes, give that a try.

Jodi Katz

Yes, I will.

Caroline Fabrigas

Get back to me.

Jodi Katz

Yes, I will, I will. So, we only have a minute or so remaining, I just wanted to talk about motherhood a little bit and you know, you told me that your kids, who are young teens now, are really helpful, right? When you’re challenged with something, they sort of give you the answer right away. But what about the life-work balance? The getting home by a certain time or, you know, having enough time to spend with them or whatever it is. Is that easier now that they’re teens than it was when they were little? Or is it, are the demands even harder now?

Caroline Fabrigas

I would just say different, I think it’s different. I think when your children are small, they have certain needs. Some of those needs are more functional and they can be helped by other people. So we always had the most wonderful nannies because I’ve always worked full-time and then my husband was working. And making it okay with yourself, finding peace with asking for help and then finding the right help. You deserve the right help, you can find the right help, if you don’t have the right nanny, it’s okay. You know, set it up for that person to exit gracefully and then find that right person for you and your family, you deserve that, you can have it. That’s something a wonderful woman once really instilled in me.

I think, then, as the children get older, the needs are different, they need a different kind of care of, you know, it’s not so functional, it’s more emotional. There’s a greater vigilance that occurs as they get older with this incredible new world of on-line, you know? Monitoring their activities, setting guidelines and parameters, I think the best thing we can do for our children is to just give them that great set of rules and life guidelines and help them to make, or learn how to make, good decisions. And then at a certain point, we just have to trust them, because ultimately, they are going to be living a life of their own.

So, I would just say, the work-life balance as we get older is different, the stresses are different, the children certainly can go and take care of their dressing, they can even make a bowl of cereal by themselves. But the thinking that we need to do, or the educating, of the conversations we need to have, are the things we need to think about. Or where we need to show up, it may not be to be up with them making their breakfast in the morning, because they actually prefer their own breakfast.

But it really might be to make sure you are home at least four or five nights out of the week at that dinner table, I have really learned that that evening meal, there are things that you’ll learn there that you would never have imagined and if you miss it, you could miss those things. So, that would be a tip, but I think the family meal is very, very important in the evenings. Taking the time to take the time to sit down, make a meal, and sit together and talk about what happened that day, what’s on people’s minds.

Jodi Katz

Well, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, it’s been incredible to have you as a guest. And for our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this interview with Caroline. Please subscribe to our series on iTunes and for updates about the show, please follow us on Instagram at Where Brains Meet Beauty Podcast.

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