Episode 46: Amanda Baldwin, President of Supergoop!
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As President of Supergoop! Skin and Suncare, Amanda Baldwin learned early on that communication is everything—in business and life. “Nobody knows what you’re thinking,” she said. “So you better just say it straight.” Hear how she’s taken talking—and more importantly listening—to a whole new level in this episode.

Dan Hodgdon
AnnouncerWelcome to Where Brains Meet Beauty, hosted by Jodi Katz, founder and creative director of Base Beauty Creative Agency.
Jodi KatzOkay, so I am so happy to be sitting here right in the flash. Right next to me is Amanda Baldwin, she is the president at Supergoop! Welcome, Where Brains Meet Beauty.
Amanda BaldwinThank you, glad to be here.
Jodi KatzI like to start these episodes off with a little how we met story because I see the podcast as a way to humanize our industry. It's not like I was born into a family that knew you and our families have been traveling in circles together or whatever. I met you when you were at StriVectin. Right? You're the CMO over at StriVectin. And you were super pregnant when I first met you.

I remember this very straight shooter, no BS, direct and clear person. I remember thinking, I wonder if that's how you are all the time or is that just because you're pregnant?
Amanda BaldwinThat's pretty much me.
Jodi KatzWhat is your style?
Amanda BaldwinGoodness. That's a big question to start off with. Look, I think at the end of the day, I think communication is everything in business and in life. And that nobody knows what you're thinking. That perception is reality. You better just say it straight, and that's the best way to kind of get people to the places that you want them to be. I think I've learned a lot about hopefully being a great leader and being very thoughtful about where other people are coming from, and trying to put myself in their shoes and understand how they're going to filter the information and tailor my style to the individual. So, I actually think I try to be as flexible as possible and understand that conversation with a marketer is very different than a conversation with someone in operations, or in product development, or in finance that their view in the world is going to be really different.

It's the thing that actually drew me into wanting to be a general manager, wanting to be a president. That was sort of always my goal because I love this idea of talking different language, speaking different languages to people along the way. So, I think my style is a lot about what is the style that's needed for somebody else? Not really what my personal style is.
Jodi KatzRight. But, my guess is you're never going to be passive aggressive, or [crosstalk 00:02:30].
Amanda BaldwinNo. Life is too short for that, I guess. I also believe in being a good person. And that in the long run you don't get great things to happen by being mean, or yelling, or throwing things. You get great things to happen because ultimately people buy into the vision and like you.

I've just never really known how to do the drama thing, or just be aggressive about something. It doesn't mean you're not straight forward, and you don't fight for what you believe in, but ultimately there's a person sitting across from you. And doing forget that.
Jodi KatzHave you had bosses who were like the mind game type of people?
Amanda BaldwinNo. I think probably that's why I've never gone in that direction. I've been very lucky, I mean, when I think back over ... I guess I enter this industry in 2005. So, you know, coming up on 15 years [inaudible 00:03:29] my math. Getting close to that, I worked for the best of the best.

And every single person has been very different, and had their own style. I think I've also thought a lot about pulling from them what I think they're the best at. And kind of ... I don't know, collage-ing that into something that works for me. But, no. I haven't.
I think I've steered clear of it, I think I can sense it. I'm just like, that's not going to end well. I pride myself on being able to get along with anybody, and kind of even somebody like that I try and figure out how to dis-intermediate that or kind of ... Again. I find, sometimes that, behavior, or even if somebody is being "mean or aggressive" to you. It's usually embedded in something else, and you can usually break that down.
I even remember when I started off as a [inaudible 00:04:17] banker, which has a lot of sort of big personalities. I had a reputation for being able to work for anybody. I always think about myself that way.
Jodi KatzThat's so awesome. So, tell us how you're going to spend your day today.
Amanda BaldwinLet's see, this, obviously. You know, what I love about my job is that it's so multi-dimensional. So, I go from thinking about the new product development of our company, to talking with our head of marketing about what are we going to do for our big [inaudible 00:04:49] over the summer, talking with a partner about that.

You know, the funny thing is that most of my day, that when I think about today, is much more about helping and counseling the people that directly report to me. It's a weird feeling that you hit at a certain point in life, where you're like, I'm not sure I'm doing anything anymore.
Jodi Katz[inaudible 00:05:11] work.
Amanda BaldwinAnd I've coached people on this because it is a little bit disconcerting when you reach a point in your career where your output is really ... You got nothing to show for it. Everybody else for it has a lot to show for it. So, what I spend my day doing, is mostly trying to think about what the big picture is. Where are we trying to go? And giving people enough vision and direction to be able to do their jobs really well.

That's kind of what I've been doing so far, this morning. What I'll do, when I leave here, is a lot of conversations with my direct reports. And quite frankly, all the way through the organization to help them go into what they're supposed to do better.
Jodi KatzIs there a point, or has there been a point at Supergoop! for you where you felt like you needed to walk away from actually doing some of the work? Or has that not crept in? Have you been there as a [crosstalk 00:06:06] ...
Amanda BaldwinI think you always have to be conscious of that. I think you also ... It's always a balance. I think my balance is always keep away from that. But, sometimes there's moments where the best way to teach is to sit there with someone and do it together. And that's not a failure, that's a ... I think what's always coming to my perspective is even if I have to step in and do it this once, let's make sure we back up and talk about what we did together so that you learn to do it the next time.

I don't know. I think I have been leading teams for long enough that I've learned that the do it for other people never works. It's a long term strategy. So, I've gotten pretty good at being okay with that, of letting go. Of ... I think I've learned a lot in the last year about hiring unbelievably talented people who are better at it than you could ever be.
And being infinitely comfortable with that, and infinitely excited about that. That has been a big thing for me over the past year. One of the things that I was charged with coming into this company was building a team that I think the brand always deserved. I get so excited when I think about the talent that's sitting around the table.
I know that every single one of them is a heck of a lot better at what they do then I will ever be. That is sort of a very fortunate place to be sitting.
Jodi KatzHow did you find this opportunity with Supergoop!?
Amanda BaldwinA head hunter call. Which, I guess never happens in life. You're like wow, you know. That's the truth.

I was really excited and happy at what I was doing before, working for a great private equity fund. And, you know, my background is kind of finance meets beauty. And I don't know. I got a phone call, it was one of those things that I don't usually go to the interview, but I did.
I think ultimately, I fell in love with what our founder Holly is doing. I love that the brand was a mission, it was created with a mission not with business. And I think that there's an authenticity to what we're doing that is so important. I mean, our mission is to get everybody to where SPF every single day.
When you have that purity as a leader, that's really exciting. I felt like it was also ... It was exciting for me to get to lead an organization, but I also felt like what I could bring to the table was exactly what the business needs. I think a great match career wise is when it goes both ways. When the person is going to get as much out of it as the company is, and vice versa. Yeah. It's not a very exotic story.
Jodi KatzI think there's probably, I assume, a lot of pressure in taking the reigns of the day to day operations of a business from a founder who has been doing this ... She likes to wear a lot of hats. And she's still very involved in the business. Did you have any anxiety around that? And how did you approach that challenge?
Amanda BaldwinLook, it's definitely a different kind of pressure. I think, I grew up in the marketing world. I always prided myself on being a marketer who didn't just sit in an ivory tower, and not think about, is their product on shelf when I want my at the time [inaudible 00:09:28] campaign?

But, I think that this is a different kind of pressure when every number and everything comes back to you. If I think a lot about it, it's very daunting. I actually opt not to think too much about it, and just take one day at a time, one minute at a time. I remember signing up for our sales number this year, this time last year. And being like, oh my goodness, that's a big jump. I've just taken it one day at a time, and we're going to hit that number.
So, one day at a time, one minute at a time, one person at a time, one product at a time. If you think ... You have to have a big picture vision of where you're going, but I think meeting goals is about setting big bold goals, and a vision. But, then breaking them down into a lot of small pieces.
Otherwise, I think to do list can become very overwhelming. So, yeah. If I think too much about it, I'm probably more daunted than I am. But, you know, I've always been someone that if I'm too comfortable in a job and feel like I can do it in my sleep, I get bored. And I don't like to bored.
I always like to be learning and be pushed, I think I'm at my best when I'm in that space. And that's ... I don't know. That's just sort of how I'm hard wired.
Jodi KatzSo, if I'm thinking about Holly's experience in running the brand before you coming on, she's doing everything right and probably every decision went through her. If not, she was making the decision herself. How do you ... I think this is like, what's happening for your business is starting to happen. So, [inaudible 00:10:54] the other businesses. Like the independent brands that we've seen, like [inaudible 00:10:58] past few years. Some of them are going to get to the point where that foundering, it's a step. And just foundry stuff, and customer facing, and retail facing things. And we need a president, or somebody in operations to take over and help grow.

So, this is going to happen to a lot of the brands that we know and some that we work with. How do you fuse the two different backgrounds that you both have and that roles that you have to keep moving forward? Not a step on her toes.
Amanda BaldwinYeah. People ask me this a lot. I think the best way to explain it is that there has never been a big conversation about it, there's not a list of you do this, and I do this. It's been seamless. I think that's the best sign that it's working, that it's just very obvious what Holly needs to do every day, and what I need to do every day and where to come together, and where to talk about things. And where not to bother about it.

Obviously, product is the place where Holly is still and will always be queen. I'm involved in that process from my experience, but I often have moments where I say, Amanda just back off. This is about a founders vision, this what has always made this brand great. Don't meddle with it.
Create systems and processes that can enable it, but don't touch it because the magic is what's already been happening. And then there's places where I've gotten a lot more involved, and where I don't think that Holly should ever have to worry about sort of back end operations or systems like that.
But, what I love about her is that she does care. And she ultimately does want to know. And it's a very easy balance that when something happens, because, you're in this business. Something always does.
It's on deck, let's figure it out. I think that I respect the fact that she has a lot of history and a lot of knowledge about this business that I don't. She may have been through it before, she ... I think that ... I hope at some point that we'll be a case study of kind of mutual respect. And being a really good dove tail of skills that each one of us knows that we're not going to get to the promise land without the other.
But, that there's not enough hours in the day to both be doing the same thing. I don't know. Like I said, there's never been a list, there's never been a conversation it just kind of is. I think that's probably the best sign that something is working.
Jodi KatzAnd you based in New York and in Texas?
Amanda BaldwinYeah. So, Holly lives in San Antonio. I always joke that there's no way that you would create a brand that's about living in the sunshine, and doesn't believe in the color black if it was based in New York. So, we very much love and will always be about our Texas roots. That's where the soul of this company is.

I think Holly back to sort of who she is, I think she very early on realized that if she wanted to build a marketing organization hire a president that her access to talent was going to be different in New York or LA. And her brother happens to be also very involved in the business, and lives in New York. I think that's kind of why the gravitational pull came to New York.
I think there was sort of pragmatic aspect to that. So, we have our marketing team here, our direct to consumer. All of the, what I call, the fairy dust. And then I say the important stuff happens in San Antonio, which is product, and operations, and finance. And it's really seamless.
I think that in this day and age so much can be done digitally that ... But, we still have a lot of fun when we get together.
Jodi KatzWe've been trying to schedule this recording together for a really long time. When we started the podcast a year ago January. So, it's not more than a year that we've been trying.
Amanda BaldwinNo, probably about six months.
Jodi KatzI'm so grateful that you're here now. Tell us what you've been doing, what keeps you so busy?
Amanda BaldwinWhat keeps me so busy? A lot. I think that I have found it be an incredible gift to be able to be involved in building a company. But, I think you kind of ... It's a whole other level of just what has to get done on a daily basis. I think the last year has really been about laying the foundation for everything that's going to come in 2018 and beyond, and there was always and always will be, like I said, unbelievable product in this brand. The DNA, the mission, those were the greatest gifts that you can give someone. Quite frankly, why I decided to come to this brand is I saw all the building blocks of something incredible. But, it was mission number one was how do you create the team and the infrastructure? And kind of the planning, and the marketing.

This brand has not had very much marketing. Until this summer, we never spent true marketing dollars on this brand. So, you have to build a lot in order to be able to push go. There's no one thing that I think has been so time consuming. But, I think we've also just kind of ... The few days that I've hand to cancel, we've gotten unlucky in scheduling things. It's always good to make time for things like this. I think we'd love to talk about our business.
Jodi KatzI mean, I'm so glad that you're here because when I conceived of this show, there's a few people that I thought of. These guests need to be here, right? And you're one of them. I just really dig you. I just love that you're so ... You're so crystal clear in your communication, you always have such a strong vision. You're also a realist. You know? I find that in working with you, actually a client working with you but also just being around you.

I think your feet are rooted in reality. And not some fantasy. That's, I think, probably part of this success is that you have realistic expectation, and you know how to make those things happen.
I don't know. I just really dig you.
Amanda BaldwinThank you, the feeling is mutual. I think I see a lot of this in you too. So, that's the same things in you. Look, I think there's always a balance between I am totally an optimist, I'm a big dreamer. I wouldn't be sitting in an Indie company if I didn't think that big things can happen, and to dream big. But, we were talking about before, I think you have to break that down into one of the little building blocks that we're going to get you from A to B.

I think leading people is a lot about helping them see ... You know, get their feet on the ground. And not be overwhelmed by all the things that have to happen. And kind of one step it around them, and being kind of a realist about it. I think ... I don't know. There's always a fine line between ... We talk a lot about this. Setting big, lofty, visionary goals. And then just kind of knowing how hard you can push, and when to back off, and when to push again. And just really reading people, and reading the organization. I think probably people who are on my team would say I definitely have pretty big goals for us.
But, I'm glad you say that I'm realistic.
Jodi KatzYou said something to me, I think we were at an event and sitting next to each other. And you half-whispered to me that I literally use all the time.
Amanda BaldwinWhat was it?
Jodi KatzThat there's a lot of products but not a lot of brands and I use it a lot because I think the kind of chaos and kinetic energy in our business right now, sometimes I really feel like vomiting all the sudden. Newness, and the portion, the cycle. I think about it a lot, and I share that thought. And I always footnote you what I do because there's a big difference. Right?
Amanda BaldwinLook, I've always, for as long as I can remember been a brand person. I'm fascinated by it, it's the intellectual underpinning of everything that I do. I wrote a college thesis on brands, I wrote high school papers on it. I'm just fascinated by what it is about a brand that makes it connect at a higher level?

I think it's interesting because I think there's a lot of conversation now about how much the world is changing, which is certainly is. But, i think that sometimes in all of the noise of social media and direct to consumer, and all of these things that are incredibly important. And to ignore how different the world is now, is just not setting yourself up for success.
I think there's ... Maybe there could be a little bit more conversation about the underlying tenants of brand, and emotional connection. And the things that you can't necessarily punch into a spreadsheet that are still going to separate things from the past. And are going to have companies sit here in 30 years from now, 40 years, 50 years from now. I think some of that is also, I worked for Clinique and Dior, my major beauty experience.
You can't work on those two plans and not appreciate brand. You can't be in those environments and look at ... You know, you walk on the Clinique floor and everything is white and green. And you go into Dior, and that wonderful obsession with how black is black. And the detail, and the story, and the history, and the codes. You can't be in those environments and not get brand, and quite frankly that's why getting back to Supergoop! I saw that little inkling of things that like, this really has the potential to be a brand with a capital B. I think that at the end of the day, that is the kind of stuff that will stand the test of time and create real movement in the industry.
But, I think that should not be taken as a discount on the power of product. I think that differentiated product is where a great brand starts, but I think that I emphasize differentiated breakthrough innovate. I think that there's a lot of sameness out there. And sort of the walls of competition and beauty have fallen so dramatically, that I think that [inaudible 00:20:55] entry are basically zero. Not quite, but you know, you need an Instagram account and some manufacturing. I think it's creating this wonderful change in the industry. But, who is going to be here in a few years?
I think you've got to think about those tenants, which have never changed. And if you look at the great brands in the industry, they all have that. And it's not to be taken for granted.
Jodi KatzWell, that takes time and money to develop.
Amanda BaldwinIt takes time and money, and I think it takes a little bit of genius for lack of a better word. I think that when I think about the brands that are ... That have impressed me over time, and will continue. There's something in that founder, often, that is special and unique, and insightful, and just ... You can't necessarily put a finger on it but it's there. They have it.

I'm sure you see this all the time, you appreciate it as somebody who is meeting with a lot of different people. I think that you can't make up. You can't manufacture that. I don't think that you do that because you wake up one morning and say, I'm just going to start a beauty brand. They have a purpose behind it.
Jodi KatzRight, I meet a lot of people honestly who just wake up one day and decide they want to make a beauty brand. It's because there's no barrier to entry, and I make a friend. And the friend might be a hair stylist, or a makeup artist, or whatever. Or a [inaudible 00:22:18], what's this [inaudible 00:22:18] on there.

And it's just part of the noise. There's not always an appreciation for the work it takes, how hard it is, how much fitness it requires. It just feels a little bit like the wild west to me. Which I think that's sort of what creates a little bit of that feeling like it's too much.
I look forward to a bit of a weeding out. I think the companies that really aren't brands, and aren't really focused on what the customer really wants and why she cares about this product because maybe they can't answer that question, they'll disappear. And we'll have some strong players, you know, many different sizes still standing. And I am actually looking forward to that.
Amanda BaldwinI never knew that this industry was going to be quite as exciting as it is. I think that when I got into it originally, I was like, this seems like some place that would be a good place to start a career in marketing. I never knew how much I would fall in love with it, and quite frankly how interesting it would get.

I feel like getting "born" into this moment where I had a lot of the old world. But, I'm going to have a lot of the new world in my career. I like the fact that I will have sort of spanned this kind of incredible shift. You can't plan for that. That's just sort of a lucky break, for sure.
Jodi KatzSo, I want to talk about business school because I went to the school of life. I didn't go to business school, and I want to know what I'm missing.
Amanda BaldwinBoy, that's a loaded question. I had a wonderful experience, this is a school. I think that ... What did I learn in business school? You know, the one thing that I would say from just a macro point of view about school in general and goodness, I hope that [inaudible 00:24:12] hold this against me but I think that in school ... I would say this about high school, and college, and all this stuff. How much you actually retain of the actual information, I think in some ways that tangential to the whole experience. I think that school in general is about learning how to learn.

Learning how to process information. It's funny because I actually, just the other day, threw out a lot of my text books from business school because the world has changed so much. I'm never going to go back and look at this because it's probably not even true anymore.
Jodi KatzSo, they were taking up space in your apartment.
Amanda BaldwinI did, and I had to clean it out because my son ... His stuff has exploded over our living room, I was trying to get some of it on a shelf. I was like, okay, it's time to part with the marketing text book from 2005. That's probably not relevant anymore. I think what I did learn was an incredible amount of skills about understanding how the business industry worked.

But, I think most importantly when we go back to that original question that you asked about style, and leadership. I learned in college who I was as a person, I learned in business school how I came across to other people. I will never forget some ... There's a lot of these sort of business school-y things where they put you in a room and talk about what people perceive of you originally and how you interact in a team. And what kind of leader ... You don't really have that conversation when you're a little bit younger, right? Because it's all about who am I even, to myself, in the first place. I would say ... I mean, I remember vividly some conversations where people shown mirrors or magnified glasses on things that I was like not super proud about. And became very aware of them.
I think that was the greatest gift, aside of course from meeting my husband. Business school worked out from that perspective. But, I think the people that I worked on teams with, and those conversations about Amanda you could have presented the information differently this way. I felt this way when you said that.
That kind of stuff really has stuck with me, and made me hyper aware as I grew into a leader. All that stuff. So, I thank all of my classmates who maybe gave me the harsh feedback of where I wasn't necessarily doing what I could have to be a great team member and a great leader. I think that is the greatest gift that business school gives you.
Jodi KatzThat was an approach that was like ... Were you in the center of the room and everybody is talking about how they feel about you.
Amanda BaldwinWe had something called a learning team, which was a group of five or six people that you did all of your group projects to in the first year. And there were facilitated feedback sessions. And I remember the first one, and it wasn't pretty.
Jodi KatzWhat did they say?
Amanda BaldwinYou know, I was somebody who always thought that if something wasn't getting done, I was going to just step in and do it. Again, you kind of see how much I have a fall from the questions that you've asked before. I remember them being like, you know, you can't just do that. What about us?

We want to have an input to, I appreciate the fact that you're like, got to get the assignment done but it's not just about you. I remember that. I remember leaving and feeling terrible, but a real light bulb going off for me. Obviously, like I said, as we've had this conversation today, probably can tell how much that impacted me, and how thoughtful that made me about how it was going to interact with other people and really listen. Those groups are extremely diverse, not everybody came from the same industry, or the same country quite frankly.
There were people from all over the world. And you just had such a dramatic point of view of, really? You thought that? I didn't mean that. But, if that's what they thought, then that's what it meant to them. So ...
Jodi KatzWhat did it feel like, in that moment, to get that criticism? Because I'm sure in your head you're thinking [crosstalk 00:28:02] this is great.
Amanda BaldwinYeah, it was terrible. It was ... I remember feeling ashamed, I think, that I didn't get it faster. And then, ultimately, incredibly grateful. I don't know. I'm somebody that's 100% convinced that I can always do everything better. So, I try and process feedback and mistakes, and things that don't go quite according to plan in that way. I hope that I try and help everybody that I'm working with process them in the same time.

Let's not dwell a lot on what didn't go the way that we wanted, let's talk about what we're going to do next time.
Jodi KatzI would imagine you have to be pretty introspective to be able to accept that feedback and believe it from your peers.
Amanda BaldwinYeah.
Jodi KatzIt does require some emotional maturity.
Amanda BaldwinYeah. I mean, I've always ... I think I've always ... This is very personal. But, I think I've always been very self-aware and okay with not being right. Again, I think everyone is wired differently.

You know, I don't know exactly where that comes from genetic coding, I was a gymnast growing up. That had an incredible impact on me, obviously not just from a physical point of view, but from a mental point of view. It's a really interesting sport in that, there's just nowhere to hide. Right?
You got to be really self-aware, you've got to be very grounded in your body physically in order to balance on the top of a balance beam. But, you also ... When you mess up, you mess up. You got to get your butt back up on that balance beam even if you've fallen 10 times. And I think that kind of doing that my whole entire life, I think made me feel okay with when you learn a new trick you do it thousands of times and mess it up before you start to get it right.
Jodi KatzYou were talking about your team, and building the team that you think Supergoop! did always deserve. Which is incredibly sweet to say. It makes me wonder what you look for in new hires? What is that all star team? What do you look for I someone?
Amanda BaldwinI think, the most important thing ... I believe there are some things that you can learn, and some things that are just innate. I think that the most important things that I look for that are innate are incredible passion and drive especially in a young company, you've got to want it. You got to be hungry. You got to be willing to go the extra mile.

Extreme level of adaptability. Again, I think more now than ever the world is always changing. You have to be really comfortable that what got you there six months ago may not be what gets you there in six months from now. You have to thrive off of that. Again, even double click on that for a small company where the business and what it needs is changing every few months.
I look for good people, nice people who have good values. Who are going to treat other people with respect, who are going to be good leaders, who are going to be good team members.
Jodi KatzHow do you see all this through like an entry process?
Amanda BaldwinI think you can get a pretty good feeling for people. I always remember the first time that I interviewed a bunch of people for a job. It was when I was ... I think I had first started at Dior. I was like, everybody must sound the same. And I interviewed 10 people in one day for a job. I was like, oh my goodness, nobody sounds the same.

You very quickly see how much variation, same job description, what variety you get. I don't know. I think I have a gut instinct for it, of knowing ... Just kind of getting a feel for somebodies personality. I think they give away a lot in just kind of how they answer questions, and I'm not too formulaic about it.
Jodi KatzYou don't have this list of zingers that you sling?
Amanda BaldwinNo. And I'm not really there to try and trip somebody up. I often just have them tell me your story. I find that there's a lot that comes out of that. You don't really need to poke and prod too much to probably get a lot.

I think so far so good at that. But, you know, you make mistakes too.
Jodi KatzSo, the last question I have for you is related to how you disconnect. I know you work hard. And sometimes working hard means working long sometimes. So, what is your process? Are you putting the phone in the computer in a cabinet at night? Are you just on all night long until you fall asleep? Maybe disconnecting doesn't happen, tell me what's happening.
Amanda BaldwinIt's imperfect, I'm sure. I think I was ... I have a son who is three. I think that not to do too many working moms stereotypes. But, I think that actually having a child puts a lot of things into perspective. Just kind of the rest doesn't matter when you're with him. It doesn't mean you're not really passionate about your job, but that little face, and that little smile. There really is no better way to let the rest wash away.

I think that's an important thing. And obviously is a relatively new thing in my life. And I think it's forced me to be better at prioritizing and all those things that people talk about because that is just sort of non-negotiable to be able to be there for him when I can even though I do travel and work very hard.
The other thing that it is that I personally a lover of art. I'm certainly not an even remotely equip to be a specialist, but I find that being in a museum, or being in a gallery is just kind of this unbelievable relaxation and release to me because I love ... I got into beauty, and out of finance because I was like, where is the creative part of my job?
I can't do anything creative to save my life, but I have an unbelievable appreciation for it. When I'm traveling, if I can just sneak something in or an hour on a Saturday. It's like I can live for three or four months on that one hour of just being in somebody else's creative space. I really enjoy that.
Jodi KatzI'm struggling with this physical reaction, need, for more messages to come in. So, I have my day, and I'm at my desk. I'm [crosstalk 00:34:37] on the phone or on email all day. Or my team and I text a lot. I'm using my fingers all day, needs coming in and whatever.

6:30 rolls around, and I look at my phone, and there's not much going on. And then 7:30 rolls around, I'm like, where is it? I don't want it to come because I want to not work. But, yet, my body craves it.
I have a hard time, I have to literally talk to myself in my head like, I don't need to respond to anything and there's nothing to respond to. Like, you're acting crazy Jodi. Do you feel like you always have to keep looking and waiting for the next thing?
Amanda BaldwinI think that we live in a world now, where there's an expectation of always on. And trust me, I'm right there with everybody else. But, I definitely have moments where I'm like, it's okay not to work every minute of every day. Those other moments are incredibly important, whether it is with their family, or doing something that's important to you. I still try and exercise even though it's sort of a losing battle. But, just taking that time, and not feeling guilty about it.

I think that there is this pressure now that working longer makes you better. I try and realize that it probably doesn't. And that those moments that you take to step away are actually going to make you more creative, and think more clearly. Again, this is coming from somebody who started life as an [inaudible 00:35:59] banking analyst.
So, my bar is very high in terms of what I think is normal. In terms of work ethic, and I think that's back to things you look for. It's a big one. That's very important to me.
But, I think you also have to know when it's just time to go do something, which isn't about that. Or at least tell yourself, and kick yourself in the butt to go do it.
Jodi KatzI have to talk to myself. I talk to myself quite often, like, move through. Stop, put it down, you don't need it. You can just watch them. [crosstalk 00:36:31].
Amanda BaldwinI have a lot of respect for founders I see. Obviously, now I work with one and so I see it in living color every day. I think there is something special in founders that is above and beyond what I'll every understand. It is your baby, it's your life. I can imagine how hard that is to ever be able to turn it off. I certainly have a lot of appreciation, and sort of know my place in the ecosystem of ... That there is just ... It is going to filter to me a little bit differently, no matter how passionate I am, and how much I care. And how much I'm going to give to this, still not the founder.

I think your challenge is probably at a whole nother level when the business is 100% your own.
Jodi KatzWell, thank you for your wisdom today.
Amanda BaldwinGlad to be here.
Jodi KatzFor our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this interview with Amanda. Please subscribe to our series on iTunes, and for updates about the show, please follow us on Instagram at Where Brains Meet Beauty Podcast.
AnnouncerThanks for listening to Where Brains Meet Beauty with Jodi Katz. Tune in again for more authentic conversations with beauty leaders.

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