Episode 45: Daniel Kaner, Co-Founder of Oribe Hair Care
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Oribe Co-founder Daniel Kaner proves that nice guys do finish first. In this episode, learn how cultivating gratitude and serenity can generate big payouts—at work and at home.

Dan Hodgdon
AnnouncerWelcome to Where Brains Meet Beauty, hosted by Jodi Katz, founder and creative director of Base Beauty Creative Agency.
Daniel KanerLet me remove the gum from my mouth. You see, when I prepare for a major interview like this, you're like Barabara Walters.
Jodi KatzReally I try to think more Andy Cohen. Do you know who he is from Bravo?
Daniel KanerYes.
Jodi KatzSo he's a super fan, which is why I love watching him. Have you ever watched The Real Housewives of anywhere?
Daniel KanerI have.
Jodi KatzSo he is like a true super fan and when he interviews these people who are on the show, you can tell that he just really wants to know. He's not asking because they told him to ask.
Daniel KanerRight.
Jodi KatzAnd that's me. I'm just a super fan. Right? So we are recording now. Okay?
Daniel KanerOh, we're live.
Jodi KatzWe're not live. We're recording.
Daniel KanerOkay.
Jodi KatzSo for all of the fans here. If you can keep it down.
Daniel KanerAnd thank you for coming. Thank you all for coming.
Jodi KatzThere's like ... so to paint a picture for everyone who's not here right now.
Daniel KanerThere are 1,000 people sitting in front of the bread counter at Bigelow's.
Jodi KatzWe are wall to wall, shoved in between the candles and the hand cream, next to the bath bombs and the shampoo and we thank you for being here. So Daniel Kaner, co-founder of Oribe, thank you for being with us at Where Brains Meet Beauty™.
Daniel KanerThank you for having me.
Jodi KatzTo give a little perspective to our listeners, today we are recording on location at the historic C.O. Bigelow apothecary in New York City's West Village. We've taken over a corner of the 200-year-old beauty boutique and pharmacy for the podcast. So thanks to Ian and his team for having us here today.
Daniel KanerThey have free delivery all throughout Manhattan. And if you come in here, Ian is actually my doctor if you're ever sick, you can come in without an appointment.
Jodi KatzSo let's start with the topic of friendship, since you bring up Ian. You've known him for a long time?
Daniel KanerI have. We have. Ian is a remarkable person. Both my wife, Sonny Kashuk and I share him as a friend, which is a very interesting position. We equally love him and he has an amazing wife, Stephanie, who tirelessly raises money for lots of cause. And he has equally impressive children. So I love them all.
Jodi KatzAnd how did you meet him?
Daniel KanerWe started doing business together a long time ago. We've been great friends ever since.
Jodi KatzDo you become friends with a lot of people you work with?
Daniel KanerI do. We spend a disproportionate amount of our time working and a lot of our relationships are built on trust. The good ones. And we do have a lot of things in common. We do spend a lot of time together. So, yes, spend a lot of time with our good clients and friends.
Jodi KatzSo we're going to get back to that topic of friendship and trust, but first I want to say congratulations.
Daniel KanerThank you.
Jodi KatzKao recently acquired Oribe.
Daniel KanerI like to think we joined Kao.
Jodi KatzOkay, so that's the question I'm going to ask you. You told me in our first talk that you don't feel like you sold a business.
Daniel KanerNo.
Jodi KatzSo what does that mean?
Daniel KanerWhen you create something ... I was a co-founder and we have about a hundred other founders in the Oribe company and they're tremendously passionate about what we do and we wouldn't do it as well, unless we believed so much in what we're doing. So it's a continuum and I think today that we're getting close to who we are as a company. We have shared values and I'll continue on in my role serving the hundred team members that I have in serving the clients that we do business with and I'll do it with the same passion as when we started because I love it. Does that answer your question?
Jodi KatzIt does, but now I want to hear what selling to a giant corporation smells like and tastes like?
Daniel KanerWell, we chose Kao. When we chose them ... I started speaking with them in 2011. I know a couple of their senior leaders in America, Cory Couts in Europe, and Trevor Attenborough in America. And then we started an educational alliance. So we actually worked together for three years. And we're a group of similar values. They believe in the same things that we do. The same value to our customer right at the center, quality, innovation of product. They're in the hair business. They have a wonderful color brand called Goldwell.

A lot of our business is selling to individual salons throughout the United States, and we have very strong relationships with them and they have very similar values; So I think we got to the point where that it worked. And I'm delighted that we're working with them. Delighted.
Jodi KatzSo paint a little bit of a more emotional picture for me on this. Like, you've worked so hard for so many years. Is there like a little dance that happened after the contracts signs, you jump up and down? Like what happens to honor that moment?
Daniel KanerIt's ... I haven't processed it yet.
Jodi KatzOkay.
Daniel KanerWe've been on the road non-stop. We've worked with all of our sales teams. We've gone all over the country. We've had sales meetings. There's quite an obligation because it's to ... our commitments are really to our customers, our team, our brand, and there's now a fourth commitment to Kao. So we want to make sure that all constituents feel happy. Everything is good. People don't get ... you know, they're not anxious. And we fulfill our promise. And being a co-founder, and being a President, there's great responsibility with that. I serve every one in our organization and the same thing with our clients.

Our clients, customers, our team built the brand., so I want to make sure that everyone's feeling really good about this transition. And I have to lead by example.
Jodi KatzOkay, so, we'll footnote this episode and when you get to the moment where you feel like you can take that breath.
Daniel KanerWell, I am. I'm delighted that it worked out with Kao and Oribe. It's the right place. It's the right team member for us. And when I think about it, I'm delighted. I'm thinking about ... we're having a team retreat. All hundred of us are going to Laguna Beach, California and I've got some speeches to write. I'm up fairly early in the morning thinking about all those things. I'm very, very happy. Woo hoo! Woo! [inaudible 00:06:32]
Jodi KatzYeah, I mean, well, I'm somebody who like my ... what's in my head is so busy. So when these good things happen I race right through them. Like, "Okay that was cool. What's on to the next thing?" And I don't think that's healthy for me because what I need to do is like really sit in that moment of that joy…that pleasure… that celebration. Even if it's just a ‘woo hoo’, because I think it makes it easier when the shit happens.
Daniel KanerRight.
Jodi KatzBecause that stuff stays in my head forever.
Daniel KanerCan you say that on TV?
Jodi KatzWe can bleep it out.
Daniel KanerOkay.
Jodi KatzIt's audio.
Daniel KanerOkay.
Jodi KatzSo I do think for my own sanity it's important for me to honor those special moments. So that the harder ones don't feel so painful.
Daniel KanerThat's true. I'm a man of 56 years old soon in March. I know what you're saying, “How does he do it?” But you learn a little bit along the journey and things that we think we're so concerned over, that we're so anxious over, some of those things rarely, rarely happen. But the fear, the anxiety that motivates us does have a positive result. It pushes us to do things. So celebrate that, but make sure that you're speaking to your other personality and not letting it get in your way.

So I always say to myself, "Put it in low gear." Be mindful of it. Just like you have to train the faith muscle in life. You have to train your internal voice as well. You have to muzzle it at some point because otherwise it's going to do you some harm.
Jodi KatzRight. So I'm trying to move through the acceptance phase of understanding that fear is the opposite of faith. Right? Like, I want to have more faith and I want to own less fear. So, okay, let's start talking a little bit about you. How are you going to spend your day today?
Daniel KanerWe started with a board meeting in my building because I haven't been around lately. Today's a media day. I'm here. I'm on your show. First time ever.
Jodi KatzIs this your first podcast?
Daniel KanerMy second podcast. And then Ian's doing a Facebook live in Ginsburg Media. He's going to have a Facebook Live after this. It's live, right? And then we'll start to plan our trip to California and we'll have multiple meetings and phone calls and it'll be a great day. Because I'll be face to face with a lot of my team members and I'll meet with Jessica Freedman, who we call the Chief… Product Development… I'll meet with Marketing. We'll have countless telephone calls and I'm up for the challenge today because I've had my RX Bar.
Jodi KatzYou've had your RX Bar? That's your breakfast?
Daniel KanerYes.
Jodi KatzGot it. Okay. So, we only spoke once before this. Ian introduced us and I love the conversation. It's sort of therapeutic for me, and I wrote down some things that came out of it. Serenity, patience, discipline, respect, partnership, and friendship. Those are all good things. Like all things I need to hear about.

So, let's start at the beginning.
Daniel KanerOkay.
Jodi KatzSerenity. Something I want. Everyday. Long for it. And you seem to have it oozing out of you.
Daniel KanerI have a lot more serenity after a bottle of wine.
Jodi KatzMaybe that's when we spoke? You described your Dad as your role model? Tell us about him.
Daniel KanerMy Dad is an amazing fellow. He's 87 years old. He lives in Marco Island, Florida. My Dad grew up in Eveleth, Minnesota. My father was an only child and every day when I'd come back from school, my father never had a bitter word for a workmate. He was a man that everything ... it was the best meal he ever had when my mother cooked it. He has a wonderful relationship with his wife and he was present to the best of his ability to be present, but he traveled quite a bit. He was a corporate attorney. And he traveled a great deal. But when he was there, he was present and he tried his best to make all my tennis matches when he could.

I remember, I was industrious as a kid. And we lived in Minnesota. And my father would, on very cold days, get up and drive me around on my paper route on Saturdays and Sundays and he probably had other things he could do, but it was never a question that he wouldn't do it.
So we have a wonderful close relationship. And he has just a positive energy that was so important growing up, because instead of feeding the bad dog, he always fed the good dog and that was the most powerful message he could have given any of us. He's still that way today. Happy heart. Worked his way through business school. Worked his way through law school. Never a complaint. Really thrilled with the journey. And I think it's such great inspiration to have that level of inspiration instead of the whining. And that this is a challenge and that is a challenge. These aren't challenges. These are all opportunities that we're faced with.
Jodi KatzSo how does that presence that he was able to have with you, how do you carry that through with your family? Right now we have a lot more noise in our lives. Like, we have the phones and the emails, right? Things that our parents didn't have to deal with. Are you able to pull them into your personal life with your family?
Daniel KanerI try very much because a family is very, very important to me. It's one of our key things. I have a great wife. Sonia Kashuk. The great beauty entrepreneur. Sonia can play chess on three levels. She can work. She can make sure she calls the kids before they go to school. She can make sure that we all keep our commitments. So it's fun to have a partnership like that. So I would have to say that I'm blessed to have a stronger senior partner in our organization, our parental organization, Sonia.

Got two great children. Jonah and Sadie. And I hug a lot. And I'm careful to be very present and very careful how I speak to them. I want to be able to build them and help them navigate, but I do not want to represent anything that tears them down or upsets them. I want to make sure that we keep them focused because you're always a parent.
Jodi KatzMm-hmm (affirmative). And they're adults now?
Daniel KanerThey're adults. Jonah is 23 and Sadie is at BU. He's 19. 19. Awesome.
Jodi KatzSo, you've had a very interesting career, right? Aveda, Bumble, and now Oribe.
Daniel KanerYes.
Jodi KatzWhy hair?
Daniel KanerWell, Sonia Kashuk, before we were married introduced me to Horst Rechelbacher, the founder of Aveda, and that's where the journey started. Horst is no longer with us. He's blending fragrance in Heaven today and may he rest in peace. He was just a great, great inspiration. He was never business as usual. And beauty was very, very interesting. He had great perspectives. He assembled a great team and that's what got it started.
Jodi KatzBut why stay in hair?
Daniel KanerI think it's something ... you know, we get involved in our path and through the Aveda experience I was welcomed into the Bumble group. And we got to be partners, where we had some ownership in the business. And then because of that business, we really started to understand haircare customers, the professional segment, and it's something we very much loved. And we identified an opportunity in hair care. Something that was missing.

As you know most hair care’s sold in professional environments or big box stores. Professional product always was something that was sold by a licensed hair dresser in a licensed establishment. And you would never jump that channel.
As times changed, you did see some of that migration with that, and I think it gave us the opportunity to introduce ... there's always good, better, and best and in all these products that we see, but we didn't feel ... we felt hair could use a little bit of a push. And that was the beginning of our journey to try to identify what would be best in class in hair.
Jodi KatzSo when I look back at my long list of jobs that I've had, many more companies than the three I listed for you, I think about like, what learning, and some of them were odd learnings… Like when I worked for a minute as the assistant to the Editor in Chief of a magazine at Conde Nast for a hot minute. And I learned my big takeaway from that job was "Don't go tell HR, you don't like your job," because, you're going to get fired by the time you get back to your chair. Lesson learned young.

What kind of learning do you think you take, like one key learning from Aveda, one key learning from Bumble, and one key learning from Oribe? What would they be?
Daniel KanerThere's so many. I think from Aveda, I would say it's really not business as usual. We shouldn't come to the table with pre-conceived notions. That creativity in the business environment is something that sometimes is overlooked. And it's something that's so important because it is the content that we all turn on to and we're looking at whether it be beauty products or clothing. It's the energy of the creation, the creative part . And Horst created an organization that caused people to sometimes, instead of looking just vertically or horizontally, he himself saw things sideways. And he created his own language and we’re able to kind of learn from that. And I think that stamped me in that experience.

Bumble and Bumble was a new experience. Michael Gordon and his team had created something really fantastic. They had brought something for the first time that was almost boutique quality, and we built something that was professional around it. So professional distribution that fit within that channel. But Michael's vision and their team's vision was something that was specialty in hair that really hadn't happened up to that point.
Oribe, you know there's probably more in me in Oribe than in any of those projects, and the team is extraordinary. The vision was really prescient in the way that we saw where it should go. We followed our business plan. There was tremendous talent. Myself, Tev Finger, Oribe Canales; the three original partners. Everyone did what they needed to do and our customers supported that vision. I remember going into Neiman Marcus and I tell the story.
It was Hazel Wyatt ... was a buyer at the time and I didn't have a bottle. I didn't have the fragrance. I didn't have product for her to test. It might have been a five hour meeting. The crowd grew as we started talking about it and I left Neiman Marcus with a commitment to take on Oribe Haircare. Now if you had said to me you can sell something or engage someone without having the actual product there, I'd have said it couldn't happen. So it taught me so much more about life. It stretched me as a person, as a business person, and it's something that I loved to bring to my team and to our customers when I speak with them.
Jodi KatzSo what happens in a meeting where there's no product and nothing to smell, anything to touch? What are you talking about?
Daniel KanerYou tell the story.
Jodi KatzJust dreaming.
Daniel KanerYou tell the story. I wouldn't say that I'm a consummate sales person, but I know the story. I knew that when we were creating our product that there was a 52-week lead time on aluminum cans. Now, no one would put me in charge of operations in their business. Maybe on the creative side, but it was on this day I was in Operations. We had to make our aerosol cans in the Czech Republic. If you can imagine little Danny Kaner. Minnesota is now making aerosol cans in the Czech Republic. I had never been to Prague before. It really taught us about globalization. So much that we could do. Great personal power. It taught me a lot.
Jodi KatzAnd when you walk into a meeting like that, so you didn't have product in hand, you just had a story-
Daniel KanerAnd I had books. I had Oribe's tear sheets. I had something I didn't bring today. I had a timeline. The original timeline that spoke on Oribe's career from the beginning to the end. And I spoke on how all those things that he had done will inform what we are doing in hair care. Then I had to go and I had to educate them on the different distribution channels and maybe why they couldn't carry professional hair care, and why this was a great moment in time for them and what we were trying to achieve.

Now, that all said, they're very smart people. Most beauty buyers are. They're exposed to everything and they can have everything. We've had some experience in the past and I was very happy that I had not burned any bridges and maintained very good relationships with people so there was a very strong element of trust.
Jodi KatzDo you walk into that room like "I'm confident, I've got this"? Or do you walk in the room like "Fake it 'til you make it"? Or are your feet wobbling? Like, what's your mindset at that point?
Daniel KanerNever fake it 'til you make it because it's not my style.
Jodi KatzOkay.
Daniel KanerBut I think you're walking in very honest and I truly believed right from the beginning that Oribe haircare was going to be great. I mean, we were working with the best labs. We had relationships. We were making our products in Switzerland. Some of them at a skin care lab because my wife Sonia had such a wonderful relationship with Dario Ferrari at Intercos, so we had exposure to labs, to people that you just wouldn't get if you were an independent.

Frederic Pignault, great friend of mine, that worked with us at Bumble and Bumble took us right into Givaudan's main suite because he thought "Wow, this is Oribe. He's all that." He's there for a meeting. So we didn't enter through the back door. We didn't enter it through a technical lab in New Jersey. We went right to the main offices and we had access to wonderful perfumers.
So we put the time in. There was a career. There was a lot of relationship. There was a lot of proof along the way.
Jodi KatzSo let's talk about patience.
Daniel KanerYes, let's.
Jodi KatzSo when I saw you this morning, we spoke about it a little bit and we spoke about it quite a bit on the phone. I am personally a fast talker. I'm a fast thinker. I get really frustrated when I'm in rooms with slow talkers and slow thinkers. It's hard for me. I have to work on it. Does patience come easily for you?
Daniel KanerIt does not. It was hard won. And I learned when I was young, we must go slow to go fast. So, my team sometimes will say when they see me trying to type out an email. They'll say "Yeah, I speak your code." "I understand your code." I find myself not even using commas today when I write. I'm just writing the top line serves as the first sentence. The second line, that's my punctuation, but I'm much more of a telephone talker. So I can move through it faster.
Jodi KatzMm-hmm (affirmative). So if you had to sit down and write, and I think you told me that you're going to be writing some speeches, does that take a lot out of you? Is it [crosstalk 00:22:10].
Daniel KanerIt does. It is part of my process. I always have a Strathmore pad and I've got my beautiful Japanese disposable fountain pens and I draw. I write. I scrap. I usually get up very early. Someone taught me a long time ago the importance of being an adult learner. So I get up in the morning very early because I'm the clearest with myself and the most truthful before the coffee. And so I get up and I start to think because I'm very, very clear and there's no distractions. And then I write. I have to write and own the process and then that becomes the process. That's how I gain clarity through edit.
Jodi KatzYou just said you wake up and that's the moment you feel the most truthful? What does that mean?
Daniel KanerI'm usually just very clear. You're not tired from the end of the day. You're not influenced by a glass of wine or tequila. There's no influences and you're very truthful with yourself and that starts the day for me in the right way.
Jodi KatzWhat time of day is this that we're talking about?
Daniel KanerWell, it could be anywhere from 4:30am to 6:15am.
Jodi KatzMm-hmm (affirmative). And you set an alarm for that or you wake up naturally?
Daniel KanerNo. I'm up every hour. I look at the clock every hour. I have your problem. If I get up, I have a pen by my bed and paper. So usually I have an old fashioned Seiko clock by all the different beds with a light so I can glance at it quickly and then I can try to get back to bed before the craziness starts.
Jodi KatzOkay, so you wake up ... this is a ritual every hour? You wake up, you look at the clock? And then you fall back asleep?
Daniel KanerAnd I set my own clock when I need to get up. I just set it and I'll get up.
Jodi KatzAnd what if you have to catch a plane? Would you set an alarm?
Daniel KanerNo.
Jodi KatzReally?
Daniel KanerBut unfortunately that will cause some anxiety. So I'll probably be up three hours before the 4:00am hour.
Jodi KatzRight. So there's an anxiety of not waking up for something that you probably would wake up for, but if you set the alarm, would you be able to relax and then not wake up as frequently?
Daniel KanerMaybe. If I'm in a hotel and I've reached my destination. I'll always ask for a wake up call, but I always get up and call them and say I'm up. Save the energy.
Jodi KatzI love that you're sharing this because first of all, your skin looks really great for someone who does not get a restful night's sleep.
Daniel KanerThank you.
Jodi KatzAnd I do think sleep is important for youthfulness-
Daniel KanerVicki Morav, once in a while, if I can ever get an appointment-
Jodi KatzNo, I mean, seriously, I think people who don't sleep a lot, it shows. Right? So your having interrupted sleep, but I also think it's fascinating that it's become part of your ritual. It seems like you're at ease with this. You're not fighting it?
Daniel KanerI love ... we have a home in Connecticut. That's our favorite place. Roxbury, Connecticut. When the children were young we had bought a small place and we'd go on the weekends. And for five years I said to my wife, "You cannot meet anyone. This is family time." And just for the first time she disobeyed that edict and she picked out these great friends after five years. We have tremendous friends there. I'll get up and I'll garden. So, I get up and I have a companion in life. Multiple companions. My daughter wanted a dog for so many years. Long story short, Sonia got her a small poodle named Jezebel. Probably three days later after a five year quest to achieve an animal, she had no time for it.

I didn't want an animal in the worst way and the animal brought so much joy to me. So I have Jezebel, a cup of coffee, and I've got a ... I love nature. I love green. And I walk around the garden and I think and I look and I feel very grateful.
Jodi KatzAre you surprised that I feel surprised by how at ease you are? Like, do a lot of people find it impressive that you're so at ease considering that you're not sleeping through the night and that you have so much weight on your shoulders at work?
Daniel KanerTeam, does anyone, does anyone- No, I don't think anyone's impressed by my ease, but I do ... we have great relationships with the team so I think there's ... is there an issue with my ease?
AudienceNo. [inaudible 00:26:09]
Daniel KanerIan, is that an issue-
Jodi KatzIt's just like ... you know, it's what I aspired to have. Like, I think that's one of the reasons I'm so excited to sit with you today because I don't feel that every day. You know, there's parts of my life where I feel serene, but I feel like I'm chasing it more often than I'm holding on to it. And I long for it. Like, I want to wake up more truthful, right? I want to not have my heart racing in moments when I feel like this is really not a reason to be having a heart be racing. So, everything that you're talking about ... like, I want it. I want it bottled up. Right? I want to drink it. And I'm just longing for it.
Daniel KanerYou have to negotiate with your other self. Identify your other self in your head and negotiate and tell them to back off.
Jodi KatzUh-huh.
Daniel KanerTell them to relax. Tell them that you'll get it done. You have to trust the achievement that you've already made. Like, are you happy with your life? Do you have a nice home life?
Jodi KatzYeah, I mean, I feel like my home life is so wonderful and like everything I've ever dreamed of. It's my work that challenges me emotionally.
Daniel KanerBecause you want to do better for people?
Jodi KatzI think I'm moving through self-doubt. Like, I think, that's my disease. And I think after so many years of not understanding what my disease is, now I see what it is and I just want to walk away from it. You know, I want better.
Daniel KanerI think everyone has that. When I was young ... you don't have a lot of mentors in life. It's amazing. Like sometimes, when a parent or a grandparent will say to you, "Be careful with your desires because maybe you're reaching a little too far and don't be disappointed if you don't achieve it."

That's absolutely the worst advice. And when you don't know what your career's going to be or what your life is going to be, and your informing your own decision, and you think sometimes I want to be successful but you leave it up to a 12-year-old or a 15-year-old to define success, you might think it's an airplane or it's a fancy car.
And sometimes in life, I would say, if you create your vision and you create a vision that's fuller, it's a vision of friendship. If you can ask for a fancy car and an airplane, why don't you ask for friendship? And why don't you ask for a dynamic partner? And ask for a big table in your home where your family and your friends sit around that table? I'm kind of a wannabe Italian. So I always think about my visions… always family, always friends. I'm happiest when I'm grilling or making something, when I'm serving. Sonia has the tabletop. That's her passion. She loves to create wonderful tables. And we sit around the table and I see my children around the table and they're always at the table when it was family time, and they're now friendly with my friends and they still want to spend time with us when we go to Connecticut or in Florida. And we work together.
I mean, Jonah came in the other day and met with our team on a digital issue and I sat back. And Sonia said "How did he do?" I said "Sonia, you would have been proud."
Jodi KatzAwe.
Daniel KanerIt felt great. I was very proud of him.
Jodi KatzWell-
Daniel KanerSo you have to create a vision for yourself. And then you have to trust in it. And then that will diffuse the other voice.
Jodi KatzYeah, my vision is serenity. I don't need the stuff.
Daniel KanerWell, you have to see it. Define what the serenity looks like.
Jodi KatzNo problem.
Daniel KanerMake sure you know what it looks like. Just like my Dad always told me. "Know what it looks like and you'll be able to achieve it. If you don't know, you'll never reach your ending or your destination."
Jodi KatzOkay, I have my homework. Thank you.
Daniel KanerYes, you can call me. I'll coach you.
Jodi KatzSuper. I love it. Well, I hope all our fans in the room enjoyed this. Thank you so much for your wisdom, Daniel.
Daniel KanerThank you for having me.
Jodi KatzAnd for our listeners not here today, I hope you enjoy this. Please subscribe to our series on I-Tunes and for updates about the show, please follow us on Instagram @WhereBrainsMeetBeautyPodcast
AnnouncerThanks for listening to Where Brains Meet Beauty with Jodi Katz. Tune in again for more authentic conversations with beauty leaders.

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