Episode 28

 

What happens when a podcast features another podcast? Things take a turn for the meta this week as host Jodi Katz interviews Jennifer Goldstein (Executive Beauty & Health Editor Marie Claire) and Jessica Matlin (Beauty & Health Director Teen Vogue), hosts of the #1 ranked beauty podcast Fat Mascara. Listen in as they talk day jobs, side hustles and what they’re doing when they’re not doing either of those things.

 

Announcer

Welcome to Where Brains Meet Beauty, hosted by Jodi Katz, founder and creative director of Base Beauty Creative Agency.

Jodi Katz

Tell everybody what happened. We were, like, at least four and a half minutes into this amazing show, and then our dear friend Rob, who is acting engineer, but is really a lawyer, came in and told us that we weren’t recording.

Jennifer Goldstein

Which was deadly, because I had such a good joke. I was really proud of it.

Jessica Matlin

You did have a good line.

Jennifer Goldstein

Jess was giving comedy gold over there.

Jessica Matlin

Well, I don’t know me so much.

Jennifer Goldstein

Try and repeat it. [crosstalk 00:00:33]

Jessica Matlin

No.

Jodi Katz

Today is a major day. It was a major day four and a half minutes ago, it’s still is a major day here. It really is because we have the guest — the host of Fat Mascara, the number one beauty podcast on iTunes. Welcome to Jessica Matlin and Jennifer Goldstein.

Jessica Matlin

Hi.

Jennifer Goldstein

Hi, thanks, but I still want to clarify about the number one thing. Am I allowed?

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jennifer Goldstein

So, sometimes we slip to number two or three, so we are generally the number one in the beauty and fashion category on iTunes.

Jessica Matlin

Yes, like, sometimes like Anna Wintour will have a chat with Audrey Lee and Sally [phoenetic 00:01:08] and we just can’t compete with that — like on the Vogue podcast.

Jennifer Goldstein

[crosstalk 00:01:11] So …

Jodi Katz

Right, but you’re number one in our hearts.

Jessica Matlin

Oh, yes.

Jodi Katz

You’re actually the only podcast I’ve ever listened to.

Jennifer Goldstein

Oh.

Jessica Matlin

Oh my god.

Jennifer Goldstein

We just record it and then just-

Jodi Katz

I record it. A lady on my team takes the file. She does something with it and she puts it live.

Jennifer Goldstein

And you never hear it again.

Jodi Katz

I haven’t, maybe I should.

Jessica Matlin

You’re like an actress who like can’t even bear to go their premiere, like, “I can’t watch myself on screen.”

Jodi Katz

Well, I didn’t … Before I started the podcast, I didn’t want to listen to anybody’s, so I didn’t listen to you either even though everyone told me about you because I didn’t want to feel like I’m being influenced by your style.

Jessica Matlin

I understand.

Jodi Katz

I was just like have what’s in my head.

Jennifer Goldstein

Sure.

Jodi Katz

And our show’s usually almost like a therapy session for me. It’s like I’m learning about how people move through the world, how they deal with stress, how they celebrate joy, and things like that.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

I didn’t want other podcasts that might do that to speak into me.

Jessica Matlin

I completely get that.

Jodi Katz

So then after I started, then I started listening to you guys, but I don’t listen to anyone else yet. But it’s something I need to do. I mean-

Jessica Matlin

Do you?

Jodi Katz

I think to like understand the climate, and understand- I mean, I’m in the business of marketing, right? So, like to understand what the other people in this space are talking about. To understand their style, and maybe ways we can tweak our tech.

Jessica Matlin

But, I have a question. So, sometimes when I talk to other, like whether it’s a retailer, like a marketer, or someone, or I’m reading an article and it’s an amazing musician or director, sometimes, and I know these people are fewer, they’re less common than they are more common. I think some of the best ones are the ones who are completely unaware of the other people in their space. And I know that’s not the wisest way to go, but I kind of think they make the most interesting stuff.

Maybe that’s a really sweeping statement. “They make the most interesting stuff.” But I like the people that who are in a little hole and then they just come out with something.

Jodi Katz

Yeah, but you know what? I listen to you guys and I think you’re almost like a variety show. Right? Because you have your interviews-

Jessica Matlin

Sounds really dignified.

Jodi Katz

… It’s not full-on Carol Burnett but you have your guest, right? You have your guest star, in Carol Burnett terms. Have you ever seen Carol Burnett shows?

Jessica Matlin

When I was younger, my mom liked it.

Jodi Katz

They are on the TV channel. You can catch them. But anyway, so she has her guests but there’s of course the flavor around the guest. It’s not [crosstalk 00:03:28] the guest.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

So I feel like that’s what you’re giving us. You’re giving me your slice of life.

Jessica Matlin

I like that.

Jodi Katz

You give me some focus on a guest and what their story is, and then you give us some more slice of life.

Jennifer Goldstein

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Jodi Katz

So, that’s inspiring, that’s interesting. So I might not copy your talk style or your content style. But the idea of thinking, “Oh, maybe we’ll gravitate at some point to like mashing up an episode into a few segments.”

Jessica Matlin

Right.

Jodi Katz

You know? So that I feel like is the value of exploring what else is out there. But you know I am going out [inaudible 00:03:57].

Jessica Matlin

Yeah. That’s cool.

Jodi Katz

Okay so I think we need to back up because we didn’t record some of this good stuff. But we know that Jessica will be called Jess or Jessica, she’ll answer anything. Jen is-

Jennifer Goldstein

-is gonna be Jen.

Jodi Katz

Jen. Jennifer is Jen. And last name edit.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yes. I got sent mail. It’s actually Goldstein, but I got sent- we got sent mail at the studio and it came to Jen and when they delivered it actually they pronounced it Jen Edit because I’m French now, apparently. But yeah the Instagram’s getting big so I guess they think my last name’s edit.

Jodi Katz

So it’s Jen_Edit-

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

On Instagram. Okay so this is a huge, huge get for Where Brains meet Beauty. Not only are you awesome, but you … this is your first time being interviewed on a podcast.

Jessica Matlin

Yes.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah!

Jodi Katz

This is your first time being guests on a podcast.

Jessica Matlin

Yes.

Jennifer Goldstein

Which you know from four and a half minutes ago when we told you, yeah.

Jodi Katz

So, how does it feel to be on the other side?

Jessica Matlin

Kind of wild.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, I’m a little bit [crosstalk 00:04:56]

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, I don’t want to disappoint you.

Jodi Katz

Really? Well, I feel so nervous because I am interviewing people who for a living …

Jennifer Goldstein

-Are interviewers.

Jodi Katz

Interviewing, right.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

So I am not … I am not a reporter. Right? I am not an editor. I am a marketer, creative director, so editing is no- I mean interviewing is not my day job. And I’m always talking to people who are not interviewers, I’m always talking to executives. So the fact that you guys have your career doing this, it makes me feel, like, intimidated.

Jessica Matlin

Well we can have like a market-off later.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, if I had to put makeup on like Pat McGrath I’d definitely be intimidated. Not at all putting us at the level of Pat McGrath as far as podcasting goes.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Jennifer Goldstein

I hear you.

Jodi Katz

Right. And you’ve been doing this on a podcast for a year and some months.[crosstalk 00:05:47] Number one, so it’s big. This is major.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, I haven’t really reflected on it like that. But yeah, it’s been cool.

Jodi Katz

But You guys took something from nothing and made it what it is. That was only a short amount of time ago, right?

Jessica Matlin

Yeah. We started … we planned it for a little while, and then, yeah, you know, we didn’t just like-

Jennifer Goldstein

February 2016 it launched.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, that’s when it launched but we worked on it for a little bit before.

Jodi Katz

So why do you think you haven’t been the guests of another podcast yet?

Jessica Matlin

I think the space is pretty small. So there isn’t a lot of … the community I think is just like finding out about each other, like there was just an article-

Jennifer Goldstein

For beauty podcasting.

Jessica Matlin

For beauty, sorry. For beauty and certainly not podcasts. So like for beauty and fashion, and beauty and fashion are still kind of like, segregated a little bit. But for beauty there’s one in Canada, there’s one in the U.K. It’s not so easy to just like pop on each other’s podcasts. I personally don’t like to do phone podcasts, ’cause-

Jennifer Goldstein

I like to see people’s expressions and I end up talking over them weirdly and the rhythm gets off.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jennifer Goldstein

Do you find that, ’cause you do yours over the phone?

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

It’s really hard because you can’t see me going like, “Move it along.” Right? ‘Cause like, I wanna keep the podcasts around 30 minutes ’cause, like, who has time? Right? And the executives who would be listening to it, right? Like, I want them to listen [crosstalk 00:07:05]

Jessica Matlin

Right, right.

Jodi Katz

So I’m trying to keep it to a time.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

I’m also trying to get really really deep into kind of their soul and their psyche, and not surface. So it’s hard to do that when I can’t look into their eyes.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jennifer Goldstein

Well look into our eyes, let’s get in our souls and psyches. We only have 30 minutes. Go!

Jodi Katz

So, it’s challenging, but the joy of scheduling is much better when I’m [crosstalk 00:07:28] over the phone. Especially when people are in other states, and many of the people we talk to are not in New York.

Jessica Matlin

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right, right, right.

Jodi Katz

So like, we’re interviewing someone in, I don’t know, in Oregon or something like … and we’ve already had to re-schedule and re-schedule and re-schedule. So , when would that ever happen if we were doing it face to face.

Jessica Matlin

It’s tough. Yeah.

Jodi Katz

It would never happen. So, I think we’ll do a mix. So this is our first Hi-fi [phoenetic 00:07:46] ever episode, ’cause everything’s been over the pone.

Jessica Matlin

Oh, wow this is cool! Alright.

Jodi Katz

Yeah, it’s a lot of firsts. Yeah.

Jennifer Goldstein

Don’t screw it up, Jess.

Jodi Katz

Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about what it’s like to be on that side of the table. Because you did ask for questions in advance and-

Jessica Matlin

I know, I’m a little embarrassed about that.

Jodi Katz

Well, why are you embarrassed about it?

Jessica Matlin

Because its like I’m trying to control it. I’m not trying to control it I think its like I’m-

Jennifer Goldstein

You’re pulling a guest no-no! [crosstalk 00:08:11]

Jessica Matlin

Oh my God, Jen forgot, yeah-

Jennifer Goldstein

Which happens to us with our guests and we get annoyed! This is so meta.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah. I can’t believe … You’re using that word a lot lately and I don’t know if you’re using it properly.

Jennifer Goldstein

Wait, I’m pausing you. I just keep trying out the word meta ’cause I don’t know what it means so I just like keep trying to use it and hoping at some point I’ll figure out what it actually means.

Jessica Matlin

That wasn’t the correct word.

Jodi Katz

Media research [crosstalk 00:08:30].

Jennifer Goldstein

Like, I kind of get the concept.

Jessica Matlin

It’s like, this is the perfect … meta is like somebody watching a video of themselves watching a video of themselves watching a vid- it’s like when-

Jennifer Goldstein

A podcaster interviewing a fellow podcaster talking about podcasting isn’t meta?

Jessica Matlin

It’s like when someone was wearing like that Macaulay Culkin t-shirt where he’s got a … he’s … he’s was watching … yeah, but like, there was-

Jennifer Goldstein

Home Alone.

Jessica Matlin

It was Macaulay Culkin wearing a t-shirt of Macaulay Culkin.

Jennifer Goldstein

Okay. So it’s like I’m photographed … no wait. I’m photographed with a painting behind, next to me in a mirror and you see it replicated in that mirror?

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, it’s like a double layer, but like one references the other. I think even the Truman Show may be a little bit meta.

Jennifer Goldstein

Oh. Uh-huh (affirmative).

Jessica Matlin

Like, it’s like two worlds kind of meeting and one is like a reflection of the other. But I know that’s not what we’re here to talk about today.

Jodi Katz

So, um let’s talk about what it feels like, ’cause we know this is the first time you’ve been on a podcast, and I do have people ask me for questions. Some people- it’s like half and half.

Jessica Matlin

I asked for questions just because I wanted to know like, did you want to know, like did you wanna know more about our careers at Teen Vogue and Marie Clare or was it more about the podcast or … ? I think I kind of want to go in prepared, so that I’m giving people- here … Here’s what I think the root is. Now I feel like I’m like in a therapy session. I think that I really have an expectation when we have a guest coming on, I kind of know in the back of my mind the stuff that I wanna get into with that guest. I know like, they may have like a makeup line, but I know that they were like, you know, a total, like, weirdo … Well that’s- don’t – can you take that out? ‘Cause that sounds like mean. Okay, well, you do what you want. That they were, that they were, you know, somebody who the world doesn’t think they were, they’re not known for X or Y and that’s the area I want to … I don’t- I never want them on because I love their lipstick. It’s like, and I don’t know what Jen’s perspective is, but like, there’s something else. It’s not because, like, “Oh my God, they’re amazing!” It’s like there’s something else. So-

Jodi Katz

Right. You don’t want to be a commercial for [crosstalk 00:10:34].

Jessica Matlin

Right. That’s the last- that’s like the- that’s not why I want them on at all. So, I want to give them a framework that won’t surprise them where they’re on the show and they’re like, “Wait, you didn’t say that we were gonna talk about that at all.” But I also want to give them just like a little map so they don’t feel duped. Do you see what I mean? I want to-

Jodi Katz

But you’re not giving them the questions ahead of time?

Jessica Matlin

No, but I give them a little, like … Just kind of a little … so they feel that they never come into the studio, because I do want to go places with them. I never want them to feel like, “Woah, this is not what my publicist, where they sent me at all.” But I also want to kind of like give them a hit that it’s gonna be a different kind of interview.

Jodi Katz

Right. And have you ever had anyone be on the show and you ask them a question and they’re like, “I can’t answer that.”?

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah. It’s usually lawyers get involved- like it’s usually like a legal thing.

Jodi Katz

Really?

Jennifer Goldstein

And we’ll edit it out.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jennifer Goldstein

But rarely, very rarely. I mean we’re talking to business people like you are so sometimes they have signs, you know, non-disclosures or [crosstalk 00:11:33].

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, things like that.

Jodi Katz

Right.

Jessica Matlin

Or someone will say, like, “I don’t really wanna talk about that.” And it’s like, “OK.”

Jennifer Goldstein

But it’s worth trying, always.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

And do you guys pre-interview your guests.

Jessica Matlin

No.

Jennifer Goldstein

No. That’s not true actually though, because we want to have at least me them.

Jessica Matlin

Oh! Oh, I thought you meant like a pre-interview like a David Letterman: Behind the …

Jennifer Goldstein

I think she did, but in a way we do because … because of our day jobs as beauty editors we meet so many personalities and we’ve never had someone on cold that we actually haven’t met or talked to.

Jessica Matlin

Right, but it’s not a purposeful like, “OK, here’s how it’s gonna go and then we’re gonna go here”.

Jennifer Goldstein

[crosstalk 00:12:02] we’ve been pitched guests who I think seem interesting, but if I haven’t met them in person, I don’t know. I mean, we meet so many people in the beauty industry and a lot of them are fascinating, but, you know, sometimes there’s a dud here and there.

Jessica Matlin

We did one- we had a- we met with a couple- there were a couple of people who we never met before who that were on the show.

Jennifer Goldstein

Dascha Polanco.

Jessica Matlin

Right, so. That was good but there were a couple of folks where the chemistry necessarily wasn’t there and it didn’t really translate.

Jennifer Goldstein

Oh I know and I had met Dascha beforehand too.

Jessica Matlin

Okay, so, yeah. But the majority of people who we’ve had on the show, it’s been amazing ’cause like, we had the connection, we saw that there was something else there besides the fact that they make amazing hair cream or something.

Jodi Katz

And I guess something in your gut told you they can go beyond the hair cream and they can go inside deeper.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, yeah.

Jodi Katz

Yeah. We … I always want to meet the person I interview first. One is can they be more persona? Are they willing to go there? And I don’t always know that just by reading other interviews of theirs or just knowing people that know them. So I do- I don’t call it a pre-interview. I just say let’s meet for coffee, or let’s just have a chat. But it helps me do what you were talking about, which is, “Oh, this person’s talking about a struggle, so let’s focus on that struggle during our 30 minutes because that’s all we have.” And I don’t want to walk into a room not having that conversation, not knowing we could even end up in that space.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, yeah.

Jodi Katz

I had one person who I’d known through work. And we started talking about what it’s like for her to be a more mature older woman who’s single, never had kids, never got married. What that’s like to be in this industry and in work. And I don’t know how we would have ever have gotten there, right? If we didn’t have that pre- conversation. Like, I never would’ve said, and been so audacious to be like, “Tell me what ti’s like to be almost 60 and never been married.”

Jessica Matlin

Exactly. So sometimes the pre-questions are like laughing at them a little bit, but it’s just to kind of like … I’ll never give them the whole thing. Because I don’t like that, that’s not what Fat Mascara is about, but sometimes it’s just good to let them know like, “Hey this is not gonna be you’re 3 minutes for some like cutie-pie website video.” You know? It’s different.

Jodi Katz

OK. So let’s go back in time, all the way back to 2016. Or when your planning started in 2015. How did this idea of a podcast come about?

Jennifer Goldstein

I’ll let Jess answer this one since it was her idea.

Jodi Katz

Oh, cool.

Jessica Matlin

But Jen is very integral to it.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah!

Jessica Matlin

I was obsessed with podcasts, and I was really into about like 2 or 3 and I was listening to them, and it was WTF with Marc Maron, which is … it’s really … the format is he talks in the beginning, and then he does a long interview. The other one is Bret Easton Ellis, and he talks for a lot at the beginning, and then he does an interview. So-

Jodi Katz

And he talks to himself? I mean, to his audience?

Jessica Matlin

He talks to the- yeah. He’ll talk for like 20, sometimes like 30 minutes to the audience, and it’s just, like … It’s like a little bit of like a monologue, it’ll be about like film or what’s going on in the world, or politics and then it could be another hour of an interview with a filmmaker. It’s almost always a filmmaker or a musician. And, I was thinking, like, “I would like to do this. But I would like to do it with beauty.” And then I look online, and I saw there were only a couple of beauty podcasts, but none of them had somebody with authority behind it, or, like, major authority.

Jodi Katz

Right.

Jessica Matlin

So, I have a friend who started a podcast about books. I talked to her about it and she was like, “that’s an amazing idea.” So I came up with a plan, I pitched the plan, which was like the format we have now, to the production company, and she said, our producer said, like, “Great. I love this idea. Definitely a white space here. But, you need a partner.” And I was like, “Oh, the world does not want to hear me bang on about beauty”, you know.

Jodi Katz

So your producer said, “This is an interesting format but there needs to be more than one of you?”

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

Hmm.

Jessica Matlin

You know? And I was like, “OK. Totally got it.” And then I was thinking, like, “Who could it be?”

Jennifer Goldstein

From my end, when we … she took me out to drinks because we just had become friendly, we met in- on a press trip to Ghana.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

Right, of course.

Jennifer Goldstein

It was our first night, like, that we were-[crosstalk 00:16:23]

Jessica Matlin

It was our first, like, one-on-one, like not in a work s-

Jennifer Goldstein

-it was a friend date, and she’s telling me about this podcast, so I immediately started being like, “OK, who could it be your partner?” Like, I started naming all the beauty editors-

Jessica Matlin

We named like a bunch of people, yeah.

Jennifer Goldstein

-people in the beauty industry. And she’s just looking at me- do you see this face she does with these like doe eyes? And she was pursing her lips and just looking at me funny and I was like, “What? What?” [crosstalk 00:16:43]

Jessica Matlin

But I didn’t think you could do it. I didn’t even know if I would be able to do it, because-

Jennifer Goldstein

Well, you thought of me.

Jessica Matlin

Of course I did.

Jodi Katz

When she was saying it, like going through a list of names were you thinking you?

Jessica Matlin

Yes, but I also thought, like I didn’t know if I could do it, because we both worked at Hearst, and I, you know, I was thinking like maybe I’m gonna have to like, leave my job, maybe my boss is gonna be so angry that I’ve even like … I didn’t know what-

Jennifer Goldstein

She was at Cosmopolitan at the time and I was still at Marie Clare, yeah.

Jessica Matlin

Yes. And I didn’t know if it would like- and it’s interesting because people have lots of side hustles now. And this is definitely like, this is not ages ago, this is two years ago but I was scared that like, “Was this something I should’ve brought to my boss first?” Like, huge question I still don’t know how I should have handled it, and I was just lucky that my boss was really cool about it. She could’ve easily not been, but I was like “How do I even deal with this? Maybe I should’ve- Maybe I’m not even allowed to like talk to someone about this. Maybe you have to talk to your company before you talk to an outside person.” It was really freaky, so I was like, “I’m not gonna even ask Jen if I don’t even know if I might get fired for this kind of thing.” But Jen was amazing and she was like, “Well I can-

Jennifer Goldstein

We put our heads together.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah!

Jennifer Goldstein

Kind of like, strategized.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah. But you took a risk, too. I mean, I don’t know. I think you weren’t like the troublemaker, so to speak, but I thought I was causing … I didn’t know what was gonna happen. But we were just so lucky and both of our bosses were incredible, they were really supportive of side things. And they were lie, “Yeah, go ahead.”

Jodi Katz

So there was no like,” Hmm let us think about it. Hmm let us talk to legal. Hmm let us talk to PR.”?

Jessica Matlin

No, at least from my boss was incredible. She was like, “It’s all about having a side thing”. She was like, “You go, girl! The more you can add to your resume, your skillset. Go for it.”

Jodi Katz

Beautiful.

Jessica Matlin

And Joanna Coles, you know, she’s the big boss there and she’s excited to see people diversify themselves and it was great.

Jodi Katz

You know it’s incredible when I think about where your industry is now. And I just look at it from a distance. I’m not a publicist, so I’m not with you and your peers all the time and the fact that you had the foresight, maybe not knowing that you needed it, to diversify your talents and build, like you said a side hustle when there’s so many changes in your industry. And, you know, very big authorities are getting dumped left and right. It’s really beautiful.

Jessica Matlin

Well … I mean, this sounds a little like self-congratulating and I don’t mean it to sound that way, but I … it was a different. It wasn’t that different, like things were definitely shrinking in 2015, but I think I felt slightly frustrated that I … I feel like I’m burying the lead a little bit, like one of the things that excited me about Bret Easton Elis and Marc Maron is that they could just talk … and I will, like, shut up in a second because I feel like I’ve been talking too much … they could just talk for a half an hour about what they were excited about in their areas of expertise. And I was like, “I love doing this and I don’t get to do this at work.” And I wanted a thing to do that. And I was like, “I can’t do this at Cosmo” even though I loved my job.

Jennifer Goldstein

And when do you mean by can’t do this, our pages are only so big, right?

Jessica Matlin

Exactly, yes, thank you, yes.

Jennifer Goldstein

There’s so many beauty stories to tell that you just can’t get to them- you don’t have space or time. So regardless of what’s happening in the magazine industry, we still wanted a place to expand the beauty story and tell the stories behind the scenes that we get to hear in like desk sides, or talk about in the taxi cab in the way home from [crosstalk 00:20:06].

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, that’s also why Jen’s a great partner. I like talking to her about beauty things. I love sharing a cab back with her because she always made me laugh.

Jennifer Goldstein

[crosstalk 00:20:15] product.

Jodi Katz

Right.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, like that kind of inside stuff. And I was like, “OK, well I’m not gonna be an Instagram star. Like, I’m not young enough, I’m not, we don’t have like a great-

Jennifer Goldstein

Listen, we’re trying [crosstalk 00:20:24].

Jessica Matlin

I’m not super fashion, that’s not me.

Jennifer Goldstein

I go to these influencer events and I’m like, we stick out like a sore thumb.

Jessica Matlin

No, and that’s fine.

Jennifer Goldstein

Is that a saying? That’s not even a saying.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, stick out like a sore thumb. But like, I don’t- but that’s fine. Like I don’t- that’s not me.

Jennifer Goldstein

That’s not who we are.

Jessica Matlin

And I … you know, there’s like 10 spots in the beauty industry now. And I … am I going to-

Jennifer Goldstein

In the magazine industry.

Jessica Matlin

IN the magazine.

Jennifer Goldstein

As beauty editors.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah. And that isn’t- that’s not sustainable. And I was like, “OK, if I can have a platform where I can talk about all the stuff I love and it’s relatively low-cost, just see what happens”. Low investment.

Jodi Katz

It’s really genius. You know, in the past, I guess like a year ago? I think a lot of shit hit the fan.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

Maybe like maybe it’s like 9 moths ago or something like that.

Jessica Matlin

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jodi Katz

And there were some friends of our publicists calling her saying like, “You know I lost my job.”

Jennifer Goldstein

Beauty editors?

Jodi Katz

Yeah.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

So much so that we’re like, “Let’s make a workshop.” [inaudible 00:21:21] beauty to help these people who … you speak your own language, right? You have your language around editorial, which is different than the language around advertising, but you’re doing the same job, right? You know, it’s like you’re creating, you’re developing concepts, you’re art directing photo shoots, you have a strong vision, you’re writing copy. It’s all the same task but you have different names for them. So we’re like, there’s so many people, let’s just get them all in a room and tell them, “This is what you call it, but when you go on a job interview, ’cause you can get this job at let’s say a McCann, you can have a creative job at McCann for I don’t know, a L’Oreal brand. But you need to call it this.” Right, like, just to help steer-

Jessica Matlin

Wow! That’s awesome.

Jodi Katz

So, it was just … there’s so much of it. That I felt like, oh my God, if my industry disappeared all of a sudden, I would want somebody to be helping me.

Jessica Matlin

That’s awesome that you did that.

Jodi Katz

We actually never did it.

Jessica Matlin

Oh, oh, oh. I thought-

Jodi Katz

[crosstalk 00:22:09] person, because everyone thankfully did get other jobs. But it was really scary for like 2 months.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, a lot of our friends who were former beauty editors have gone into doing content for brands directly.

Jodi Katz

Yep. Yeah.

Jennifer Goldstein

And I know people who have done that and then come back to the media industry. I mean we’re all, like, story tellers and we all love beauty, so it’s very [crosstalk 00:22:27].

Jodi Katz

Exactly. But it’s so scary to think that the things you trained for like 15 years, 20 years are all of a sudden, like, slipping through your fingers.

Jennifer Goldstein

No, I think it’s exciting! I think it’s-

Jessica Matlin

Oh, God, Jen!

Jodi Katz

I don’t know. If you have like a family to feed and you have to pay your rent …

Jennifer Goldstein

Absolutely, but it … there’s other opportunities. Not like the whole amount of work goes down, it’s just it’s shifted to different places, you just gotta go find it, you know?

Jodi Katz

That’s right.

Jessica Matlin

I don’t know. I still think it sucks.

Jodi Katz

I think it’s closing down the factory.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah.

Jodi Katz

The factory closes in town, I mean, to simplify it. And now I have to take everything I’ve learned in terms of doing whatever I did in the factory and find another place to go and it might not be a factory. It might be … I don’t know, a widget store, whatever.

Jessica Matlin

Right, but what if the factory made really cool stuff and like quality items and now the items that they’re selling are really crappy items, like, you know? Like …

Jodi Katz

What are you trying to say?

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, this analogy’s … loaded.

Jessica Matlin

I … yeah, okay … No, I just feel like I love long-form, beautiful, print stories-

Jennifer Goldstein

Ah, you’ll miss glossy pages, and-

Jessica Matlin

You know? And now the demand is not for those stories because they don’t … they’re too expensive, or they’re … maybe crappy was too loaded. But like, it’s about clicks, it’s about this, it’s about … and there’s room for all those things, but I really do enjoy a really well-reported, longer story. And I think that’s why I was so excited to do Fat Mascara, ’cause I wanna have a longer conversation like we’re having now, like … is that too unfashionable now?

Jodi Katz

No, I think it’s awesome. Do you guys transcribe your episodes?

Jessica Matlin

No.

Jodi Katz

Oh. Well then you may want to.

Jennifer Goldstein

Well, you know, we do this thing called Raise a Wand where we pick a product that we love every week. And our lovely intern Chloe [phoenetic 00:24:14] uses those for Instagram posts. When I was doing those Instagram posts, I would edit down what we had said about the product-

Jessica Matlin

Oh my God!

Jennifer Goldstein

-to make it really snappy and cute. You know I’m a magazine editor. She just takes it, like, straight from how we talk and puts it on Instagram. Good lord would no one wanna read us transcribed because a conversation audibly is very different!

Jessica Matlin

We need to edit those.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, so I ended up going in and editing them down a little bit. And you know as a writer, it aint the same. You want to craft a flow of an article and I want to be witty and think about it. Like, just transcribing our stories is just not the same as a beautifully written piece.

Jodi Katz

Yeah.

Jennifer Goldstein

Beauty or not beauty ’cause we both do features as well, so.

Jodi Katz

Do you post the episodes on your website as well?

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah. [crosstalk 00:24:57]

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, yeah.

Jodi Katz

If you transcribe them and post them there, even if they’re hidden, it’s good for your SCO [phoenetic 00:25:01].

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, well, and we have our blog that, like-

Jodi Katz

I learned that- I just learned that!

Jessica Matlin

I was like, “Oh my God!” Can you do a course for us?

Jodi Katz

OK, so let’s talk about Life-Work Balance. This is what we talk a lot about on our episodes, because this is something I struggle with. Because I started my business 10 years ago because I wanted to have control over my time. And I say that with a laugh- I mean I still have control over my time, but sometimes I don’t have enough of it or whatever. But you have your day jobs which are very, very demanding, right? You know, this is not an easy job that you have. I’m not suggesting it’s not fun, but it’s not easy, it’s demanding. And then you have this, right? Which is really separate, right?

Jennifer Goldstein

Sure.

Jodi Katz

It’s not like it’s mashed up with your [crosstalk 00:25:43].

Jessica Matlin

No.

Jodi Katz

It’s just for the story. And, you know, with all the like the Real Housewives to watch, and all the Below Deck, and now Below Deck Mediterranean.

Jennifer Goldstein

Do you [crosstalk 00:25:52]. I couldn’t tell!

Jodi Katz

Mediterranean takes up a lot of my time.

Jessica Matlin

And you’re not on the Southern Charm tap, are you?

Jodi Katz

I watch it and I think of Kate all the time, ’cause that’s where she’s from.

Jessica Matlin

Yes, yes.

Jodi Katz

But I’m really a Below Deck, just [inaudible 00:26:06]. But anyway, how do you do this? Really, with your time, how do you schedule it? How do you organize it so that you can feel fulfilled and feel joyful?

Jennifer Goldstein

Well, here’s a little funny thing. I don’t know if you heard the Sean Paul music going off just then, I’m like the queen- this is just like a little hack. I’m the queen of setting alarms throughout the day. Instead of a t- I have a to-do list, obviously, but then if the to-do list isn’t working and I’m not getting stuff done I’ll set alarms for, ‘In an hour and a half I have to do this or whatever’. The people I work with hate it because my phone keeps going off with like dancehall or like EDM music in the middle of the day. Just to remind me, like, ‘Oh, you were supposed to switch to this task now.’

Jodi Katz

Interesting.

Jennifer Goldstein

And I know that sounds super like, “It’s a tip that works!” But like, it’s one of the things I do-

Jessica Matlin

Just hit snooze! I would just keep-

Jennifer Goldstein

That’s what happens! That’s what I just did. And sometimes it will be the same … just like on your to-do list, you know, you just keep moving that item to the next day’s to-do list, and the next day’s um-

Jodi Katz

So wait, you’re saying you go into your calendar and you-

Jennifer Goldstein

Not the calendar, the alarm.

Jessica Matlin

Like reminders?

Jennifer Goldstein

The one you wake up to, yeah.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, but how do you know- if just a song goes off, how do you know what that means? Could mean everything.

Jennifer Goldstein

Because I have different songs for like alarms, and I [crosstalk 00:27:11].

Jessica Matlin

But you have to know that in your head, like Sean Paul is-

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, Sean Paul is get work, get busy. I think that’s one of the songs, actually, ‘Get busy’.

Jodi Katz

This is a very fascinating system, OK.

Jennifer Goldstein

It doesn’t work too well. Let me tell you.

Jessica Matlin

It’s too weird.

Jennifer Goldstein

Still, sometimes I’m up late at night doing things. But honestly, some things have fallen by the wayside since we’ve- this summer’s been really big for us, we’ve gotten lots of opportunities through Fat Mascara. I haven’t watched TV in … 2 months.

Jodi Katz

Oh God!

Jennifer Goldstein

Other than Game of Thrones, and House of Cards. Like, I don’t have time anymore.

Jodi Katz

Wait, so there’s no Bravo? Wait what?

Jennifer Goldstein

No!

Jessica Matlin

She, yeah … this … there’s no Bravo happening here. We actually just ran into a colleague of ours on the corner who met Dorinda last night, got hugged by Dorinda. There was all this amazing Bravo gossip, there was some Jason Hoppy talk, it was incredible. And poor Jen was just like, glazed look. I’m like-

Jennifer Goldstein

I nodded along.

Jessica Matlin

You nodded, you were very sweet.

Jennifer Goldstein

It’s actually … it’s not a good thing. Because we work in pop culture, beauty and entertainment are so intertwined, I should know this stuff.

Jessica Matlin

No, Jason Hoppy has nothing to do with like the latest looks.

Jodi Katz

I don’t know who Jason Hoppy is.

Jessica Matlin

Bethenny’s ex-husband! That’s … yes!

Jodi Katz

Oh! I don’t like to think about him, so I don’t know his name.

Jessica Matlin

‘Cause he’s a dark figure on the show. That was like deep Bravo. That’s was like next-level …

Jennifer Goldstein

This is like another podcast you guys can start.

Jodi Katz

Yeah, they’re already on.

Jessica Matlin

There is one. Watch what Crappens. So good.

Jodi Katz

Wait, what is it called?

Jessica Matlin

Watch what Crappens. You gotta listen to that one! It’s so good. It’s the best one. It’s the best one. Well, it’s like one of the best.

Jodi Katz

Okay, so let’s talk seriously. You have personal lives?

Jessica Matlin

Yes.

Jodi Katz

I assume?

Jessica Matlin

I have a personal life, but it’s smooshed into one hour at the end of the day.

Jennifer Goldstein

And your cat takes up another [crosstalk 00:28:49].

Jodi Katz

And what is that hour? Like 11 pm to midnight? Like, when is that hour?

Jessica Matlin

So I come home from work and then very often there’s like pod things happening or like a work thing or catching up on work. There’s a lot of like, nudgey stuff. And then I have dinner with my fiance.

Jodi Katz

Your fiance?

Jessica Matlin

My fiance. I just like saying it. It sounds, so, like, “With my fiance-

Jennifer Goldstein

Then she sends me- texts me a picture of her cat.

Jessica Matlin

No. I only did that recently and you didn’t respond.

Jennifer Goldstein

I don’t know what to do with that.

Jessica Matlin

And-

Jennifer Goldstein

I’m like, “Yes, there’s a small mammal. Thank you.”

Jessica Matlin

She’s beautiful. And then we just kind of like hang out. But then I feel like I very often feel like I’m multi-tasking with work and enjoyment a lot. But I do try to have an hour or so where I don’t look at work or anything. But in the morning, from the time tI wake up to the time I leave, I’m not doing work stuff. I’m not someone that wakes up and do stuff like that-

Jennifer Goldstein

Do you know what I just realized? This might be part of the reason it works. It’s great to have a partner doing this, ’cause we can split up the tasks for this job. I tend to get a lot of stuff done right when I wake up, and then I’ll like, be firing off emails and texts to [crosstalk 00:29:53].

Jessica Matlin

No way, José!

Jennifer Goldstein

She picks up at night, but it balances well. And because we’re always signing emails from the both of us, if one of us forgot to reply to someone about something the other one picks up, and now that I’m thinking about it, this would’ve been impossible to do on my own, not that it was my idea. But like, it helps to have a partner, is what I’m saying.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah. In the morning I really play with my cat though, for like an hour.

Jennifer Goldstein

A business partner, not like a personal partner. Obviously, you wanna have support at home, but … Yeah, keep talking about Jeanetta [phoenetic 00:30:17]. This cat-

Jodi Katz

Is Jeanetta the cat?

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, no I have like an hour of chill time.

Jodi Katz

[crosstalk 00:30:21]. No cat for Jen?

Jennifer Goldstein

Are we allowed to curse? Sorry I’ll keep it PG. Heck no I don’t have a cat! I have … a life. Just kidding! That’s horrible! I love her cat, she’s actually a dear.

Jessica Matlin

That’s not nice. Not nice. Not nice.

Jodi Katz

Okay, so, um-

Jennifer Goldstein

Continue.

Jodi Katz

You know, a lot of your job is like, these are kind of like, social things, even- maybe they’re like, fake social ’cause they’re work social. So you have to like, go out a lot.

Jennifer Goldstein

There’s a lot of events, and …

Jessica Matlin

Right? That’s what I mean, like-

Jodi Katz

[crosstalk 00:30:46], you have to have drinks with people. This to me is kind of my worst nightmare. All I really want to do at the end of the day is put my PJs on and watch Bravo. And, I like, this is me.

Jennifer Goldstein

I think you’ve found your soulmate.

Jessica Matlin

No, that’s what- I want to get to where you are, because that’s me at heart. Like, I want to leave work at like 5:30 and be home. Like, my friend, she’s a teacher, and like I called her the other day. And not that she doesn’t work her butt off, but she is at her- in her classroom at like 7:30 and I called her, or I texted her, like “Are you home?” And it was like 4:00. And she’s like, “Yeah.” And she’s like making dinner. You know what I mean? Like, I love that. She’s in her jammies at like, 7:00. You know? Like, beautiful. I would love to get to that spot. It’s not gonna happen for a long time. I know that’s not your lifestyle.

Jodi Katz

Well, I guess I made a choice. I made a choice, I don’t know, 10 years ago. Or maybe a little bit more to be on my own to allow me to be in my PJs. I mean, sometimes I’m in my PJs working.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, of course.

Jessica Matlin

I work, actually, quite a bit in slippers. I work- we have a virtual business. I mean, We have an office in the city, but we offer it virtually, so many of us are in our slippers all day long.

Jessica Matlin

That’s so cool.

Jodi Katz

But I knew that I’m not gonna be a billionaire. And I didn’t want to be Donny Deutsch, like that was not a goal of mine.

Jessica Matlin

Was it ever?

Jodi Katz

No, never.

Jessica Matlin

And then-

Jodi Katz

I don’t want to be in front of the camera. I want to be home in my PJs. He wants to be out at night, right? I don’t know him, I’m just drawing parallels. So I made the choice that I know I’m not gonna be a bazillionaire, but this is OK. Like, this is what I want. Which is to be able to like, in the summer, go in my garden and pull a zucchini, I’m not joking, off the vine.

Jessica Matlin

That’s incredible.

Jodi Katz

It is! And like the simple things are so important to me. Where, like, in my 20s I was so about, like, accumulation of stuff. Like, being out, meeting all these pe- I was so obsessed with being out that I had a job. I had a nightlife website. Like, I was like the writer of a night- I’m not joking.

Jessica Matlin

What?!

Jodi Katz

This is during like 1999, before Y2K, I was the writer and editor of a nightlife website. My job was to go out at night, hang out with the promoters, or whatever they’re called. And then write about it the next day.

Jessica Matlin

Is it still in existence?

Jodi Katz

No, we never made a dollar. But I went to Miami to do this, I went to L.A. to do this, it was like, you know [crosstalk 00:33:03].

Jessica Matlin

That’s so cool.

Jodi Katz

But anyway, in my 30s I made a choice. Right? So, but anyway …

Jessica Matlin

Wow!

Jodi Katz

I don’t even know where we had started there, but let’s go a little bit farther and deeper into beauty becomes sometimes I feel like there’s so much in my head about this business that I kinda want to barf it. We named it something, I called it. What did I call it? I think beauty barfing? Nope, that’s not it. Beauty … binging? Nope, that’s not it. I don’t remember what I called it, I’ll have to find it in my notes. But, oh! Beauty burnout. Like I feel like I can’t take it, like I need a break. Do you guys ever feel that way? Jen?

Jennifer Goldstein

I don’t know why you’re not answering because we literally had this discussion this week about that. Because I think we do it 24/7 and certain times there’s so much product in my house, and there’s beauty everywhere and do I need another freakin’ lipstick? And are you trying to sell me a cream and I get crazy, and then I see a nice young face get really excited about a beauty product, or I meet a really cool creator that I haven’t met before and it like re-ups my energy in the industry, but it goes in waves for me. I mean … it happens to every beauty editor, you get to that point where you stop bringing product home, and … I watch the more junior editors like, hoard stuff. And … it takes a lot to make it into my bathroom these days. Because there are so many products. So, beauty burnout, for sure, I do, but I think that happens to anybody in any industry.

Jodi Katz

Right, but for us it’s like … if we worked in banking and we had banking burnout what would we do? We’d go to the spa, we’d open a magazine, right? To get away from things. What are we doing to get away from beauty, it’s really hard, right? To actually get away from it because we’re so in it.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, I don’t know. When I go climb a mountain in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of dudes, there’s no beauty.

Jodi Katz

So that’s what you’re doing? That’s what-

Jennifer Goldstein

I mean, I don’t get to do it as much as I want, but yeah I step away from the beauty industry in my home life, I think. I tend to be a little bit more outdoorsy.

Jodi Katz

So, like, weekends are those dedicated to outdoorsy things?

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, this past weekend I was like jumpin’ off waterfalls and I didn’t have makeup on the entire weekend. That fixed my burnout, what about you, Jess?

Jessica Matlin

I don’t think like … I’m not like a product junkie, you know? I like the industry, I think it’s not … I do get what you’re saying. I think its more like the beauty, fashion, kind of like ultra- New Yorky kind of like industry thing that I get more burnt out on than, like, “If I see another product I’m gonna freak out!” You know, like?

Jodi Katz

Right, it’s not about product it’s about the noise. It’s about the news-

Jennifer Goldstein

Sorry, yeah.

Jodi Katz

-to borrow something, like the fake news around beauty, like what’s important right now.

Jennifer Goldstein

I see that happening to a lot of the digital girls, too. ‘Cause their jobs are so important about getting clicks that they have to manifest trends. And trends are inherently, as an editor, listen, we’re not following … we make them. If we say it’s a trend at Marie Clare, like, then it’s a trend. Which is funny because we’re not- we’re sort of like, behind the trend. Whereas the digital girls will be like, going through Instagram and just looking for something kooky to give it a name. Like Bambi pose, or Unicorn highlighter, or … And then make noise around it. And I’ve seen those women who write that kind of stuff burn out more quickly than I think we do because-

Jessica Matlin

Exactly!

Jennifer Goldstein

-the pace of content creation is just unsustainable.

Jessica Matlin

I think that’s sort of what I was alluding to before when I was saying the junkie stuff versus the quality stuff. I don’t think I could ever do that kind of content. And even calling it content, is kind, makes me be like, “blah”

Jennifer Goldstein

Well I don’t make content. I write stories.

Jessica Matlin

Right, I don’t want to make content. And I know technically speaking, yes, I’m making content. But to be a part of like the content factory is something that, if I had to … obviously I have to engage with it, but I think if I had to engage with it super closely day to day to day to day and produce it, and it could I think wear on you a little bit. But some people really thrive on it, it’s just something that isn’t for me.

Jodi Katz

But you don’t feel the burnout? Like feeling like barfing stuff? I believe your fiance [crosstalk 00:37:25].

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, it’s so funny, sometimes I … and I am really clearly enthused about beauty because I’m gonna tell you about this example so I can’t act like I’m like super like, “Eh, it doesn’t matter tome.” I come home sometimes and I’ll be like, “Oh my God, I do love this cream!” I do like skincare a lot, so I’ll come home and I’ll be like, “No seriously Jeff, like this is actually amazing and I think you should really look into it and I think you should try.” And, he’ll be reading a book, and you know, he’s really good at his job, he’s amazing, he’s the scientific director for Kiehl’s, I think he’s a genius.

Jennifer Goldstein

The man and his creams.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, he’s a chemical engineer, he’s a PhD. And I’ll show him and I’ll be like, “Just let me put it on your hand.” And I’ll put it on his hand and he’ll be like, “Can we just do this tomorrow? I’m reading.” ‘Cause eh doesn’t want to … or he’ll look at it really quickly and he’ll tell me very quickly, but he doesn’t want to engage when he comes home from work.

Jodi Katz

He can compartmentalize?

Jessica Matlin

Oh he is the king of compartmentalization. For me it’s a little bit more all the time. I do love it, but if I were doing like, you know, Bambi pose, Bambi eyes all day long, it might get a little much.

Jodi Katz

But if someone young wants to get into your business, I mean they have no choice but to do that, right? Like, what other avenues are there?

Jennifer Goldstein

When you say business do you mean writing about beauty or just-

Jodi Katz

Yeah, sorry going back to your day job. Yeah, writing about beauty.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, well. I think there’s stories everywhere. I don’t think that there’s- the only place to write is for these big websites that just want clicks. Like, how do you think, maybe, Into the Gloss started? It didn’t start because she was working for a website and wa- you know, it started from a place of I want to tell stories, the same way our podcast started. I mean, a lot of girls aren’t going to have that level of quality, so it’s gonna take them forever to get to that place, but if you’re than enthusiastic, and I say this to young women all the time that want to get into the beauty business. Start your own blog. And I know that sounds so Old School, 1.0 , pre-2010. But if you’re good, it will find an audience. And if you’re not, you’ll learn really quickly maybe you should be doing something else.

No offense to anyone who wants to be a writer of whatever, I’ve had a lot of younger editors or writers that have worked for me and it’s a talent and some people don’t have it. And I’ve seen girls, or women, sorry, who then go on to do something else and are so much happier. ‘Cause nobody wants to do what they’re not good at.

Jessica Matlin

Right.

Jennifer Goldstein

And there are so many jobs in the beauty industry. So I started out in marketing, I was working for Sephora, and I just wanted to be beauty because I thought it was fascinating. The writing came as like a fluke, like, “Oh, maybe I can write.” But there’s so many jobs in this industry besides writing about beauty if you’re enthusiastic.

Jessica Matlin

And I think any job … I’m trying to figure out the right way to say this … You might burn out on anything, so I don’t know if it’s just beauty. Also, some people are finding more meaning in, especially now in the beauty industry. And I think about … it depends who you write for, what you do, but we actually were just talking about this on Fat Mascara, some people … there’s an extra layer of meaning to, and almost like political stuff to beauty right now. The people who write for Teen Vogue, certainly, not every article’s like this, but, not every article’s like glitter nail polish. At Allure and Teen Vogue, the content is much more elevated, or like the point of view is much more, just purposeful. So it depends really where you’re writing for. And then people move jobs, they do different things. You can shake it up.

Jodi Katz

Right, so do you see any other hustles in your future? Can you fit another hustle if there was like another hustle if there was another thing in the world? Could you keep your day job, continue to run this amazing podcast, is there room in your lives for one more hustle?

Jennifer Goldstein

I also do freelance writing on the side, and consulting in the beauty industry.

Jodi Katz

Really?

Jennifer Goldstein

And Jess does sometimes too, right? So there’s a lot of hustles, like, I don’t know. I’m not starting a [crosstalk 00:41:22] shop or [inaudible 00:41:24] anytime soon.

Jessica Matlin

My dance card is really full right now, and I’m getting married soon.

Jennifer Goldstein

Oh! The wedding is the side hustle.

Jodi Katz

[crosstalk 00:41:32] fiance?

Jessica Matlin

Yes. To my fiance, so I’m not-

Jennifer Goldstein

And I’m commandeering the whole thing so that’s my side hustle too. I’m playing the bitch card! Like, if any of the family … like I’m there, if any of the family gets out of line- Oh my- I’m not telling the story that I really told about how I would keep everybody in line at your wedding.

Jessica Matlin

Oh don’t. Please don’t.

Jennifer Goldstein

I won’t, that’s inappropriate. But I’m here to be her foil, like, right? Count on me. So, that’s our side hustle-

Jodi Katz

Like, good cop, bad cop kinda thing?

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, I’m bad cop always. I’m not always bad cop in our situation.

Jessica Matlin

Oh my God! Little bit bad cop, yeah.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, I’m bad cop.

Jodi Katz

And you’re wearing white and you’re wearing black.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, I’m the darkness.

Jessica Matlin

I’m wearing a rainbow.

Jennifer Goldstein

Welcome to the darkness.

Jodi Katz

You are wearing rainbow!

Jessica Matlin

Rainbow, yeah.

Jennifer Goldstein

She’s a redhead, like she’s light and sunshine and laughter.

Jessica Matlin

Ha!

Jennifer Goldstein

And that’s the balance of our partnership, too. I’m much more analytical and compartmentalized. Less emotional, to my detriment sometimes. And you’re more of like an artist and a feeler so we balance each other really well.

Jessica Matlin

I would say.

Jennifer Goldstein

I feel like you should marry me!

Jessica Matlin

Oh! I have my own scientist to marry.

Jennifer Goldstein

Okay.

Jodi Katz

So one last question, I want to get a little bit deeper, let’s-

Jessica Matlin

I love all these layers! It’s like the center of the earth! We’re going one layer deeper!

Jodi Katz

Let’s ignore beauty and other things. Like, what Jen gives you really true joy in your day?

Jennifer Goldstein

It doesn’t happen every day, but true joy to me is being outside, outdoors, literally with no people around but myself. Going for a hike. Which I’m sure sounds like hell to some people, but I have to do it to reconnect and feel happy again. I get drained by talking to people and all that stuff, so that’s my joy. I should probably say my family and whatever, but that’s the truth. I answer truthfully.

Jodi Katz

So is this like the Into the Wild, [inaudible 00:43:15], like have you been out for a week or more at a time by yourself in the woods?

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, but I was much more … yeah, I knew how to pack my backpack.

Jessica Matlin

Oh my God!

Jodi Katz

But you’ll do that, you’ll go out like all by yourself?

Jennifer Goldstein

I haven’t in a while but yes, yeah, for sure.

Jodi Katz

That’s so cool, you’re more brave than I am.

Jennifer Goldstein

I know and every time I tell Jess about my next adventure that I want to go on-

Jessica Matlin

It makes me very upset.

Jennifer Goldstein

-she’s like, “Will there be cell service?!”-

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, I don’t like this idea. I think there’s no reason to.

Jennifer Goldstein

But it gives me joy.

Jodi Katz

Right. Okay, same question for you, Jess.

Jessica Matlin

Like, every day or just in general? What are you talking about?

Jodi Katz

Well, Jen gave us a non everyday. But simple things give me joy, like going to Trader Joes.

Jessica Matlin

I have like a lot of things.

Jodi Katz

Not rushing around gives me joy.

Jessica Matlin

Not rushing around is a biggie. So I’ve- so all my things are not rushing around. I’ll give your like five example- I’ll give you five things. So one, you can’t laugh because I know you’re gonna be like, “Oh my God! Shut the hell up! This is so crazy! You sound crazy!” I love petting my cat in the morning. Really, no it makes me so happy. It grounds me in the day. We like just chill, we hang out.

Jodi Katz

Is it like a meditation exercise.

Jessica Matlin

A little bit, yeah. Okay. Jen is like, ready to leave. I love hanging out on the couch with my fiance and just eating and chilling and-

Jodi Katz

So you guys eat dinner on the couch [crosstalk 00:44:32]?

Jessica Matlin

Well sometimes, well it depends, if we have a lot of talk about, it its like a big day, we eat at the table, but if it’s just like, “Ugh, like let’s just eat. Today was annoying and horrible.” And it’s like 9:30, we eat on the couch with the cat between us. So then, yeah, so it’s a little bit of a family moment.

Jodi Katz

Eating on the couch is one of my pure joys.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, I love that. So eating on the couch, we watch like a Master of None or something like that with the little kitty and the food. Then, I love … this is very Jen. Walking on the street with my headphones, with no one around me just like listening to some music. And then I guess eating.

Jodi Katz

Eating?

Jennifer Goldstein

You should see our Instagram for proof.

Jessica Matlin

A big glass of wine too, like a big glass of wine. Just like a big-

Jennifer Goldstein

We did a carafe each last week.

Jessica Matlin

Yes, Oh my God!

Jennifer Goldstein

With Daniel Martin the makeup artist.

Jessica Matlin

Ugh, just like-

Jennifer Goldstein

He did none, ’cause he’s a wonderful gentlemen.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, I like going to concerts. I also like hanging out with my family, like I love, and like, laughing-

Jennifer Goldstein

[crosstalk 00:45:26] one answer. You’re giving like a whole-

Jodi Katz

You’re very multi-dimensional.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, I love hanging out with my family.

Jennifer Goldstein

God! I sound like a sociopath! I just thought we were allowed to give one answer, so I picked one thing that gave me joy. I like eating too.

Jodi Katz

[crosstalk 00:45:39] the Himalaya. Do you know what the Himalaya is? It’s this like-

Jennifer Goldstein

It’s a mountain range?

Jessica Matlin

In Point Pleasant?

Jodi Katz

In Point Pleasant. You know-

Jennifer Goldstein

Oh! See of course the mountaineer would be like, “Oh, I’m going to Nepal in November”, like I really- [crosstalk 00:45:51]

Jessica Matlin

I’m like, “the children’s ride?”

Jennifer Goldstein

Oh my God! Is that what you thought?

Jessica Matlin

Yeah, the Himalaya it goes like-

Jodi Katz

It is! It is! It’s a ride.

Jessica Matlin

Yeah.

Jennifer Goldstein

Oh wait- oh you really are … ? OK I’m sorry I did not … so no I don’t know what the Himalaya is.

Jodi Katz

It’s a ride where you get in like your little car and it’s so cool.

Jessica Matlin

It’s awesome.

Jodi Katz

And it spins as fast as you can with Rock n’ Roll music and then you raise your arms and you cheer, and they go backwards, and I giggle so hard. And because of the centrifugal- centri-

Jessica Matlin

Centrifugal.

Jodi Katz

Like, everyone who’s on the inside pushes on a person who’s on the outside-

Jennifer Goldstein

It’s actually centripetal, I think. The other one-

Jessica Matlin

Centrifugal!

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah,

Jodi Katz

Well, the force. It’s like giggles, giggles, giggles nonstop. If you like to spin it’s amazing.

Jessica Matlin

I like when somebody, like when the wrong weight is on the wrong side and like you plan … you thought you planned it right, but actually the person who’s much heavier is slamming into you. Do you know what I’m talking about?

Jodi Katz

Yeah! And then you get [crosstalk 00:46:42]. Literally, like your body gets squished. Like if you are-

Jennifer Goldstein

You’d like zorbing. You ever zorbed?

Jessica Matlin

No, what’s that?

Jennifer Goldstein

It’s like a big hamster ball they roll down-

Jessica Matlin

Oh my God!

Jennifer Goldstein

You’re inside. I did it in New Zealand. It’s like … yeah, I haven’t laughed so hard in my entire life. You just flop, you’re just flying around in a little bit of water, and maybe another person or two.

Jessica Matlin

That’s hilarious!

Jennifer Goldstein

Bruises, broken bones, it’s amazing.

Jessica Matlin

Oh it hurts?

Jennifer Goldstein

Oh my God! You’re slamming into people, rolling down a hill in a huge gerbil ball.

Jessica Matlin

That’s the funniest thing.

Jennifer Goldstein

It’s Himalaya, like, extreme!

Jodi Katz

I think that the way you’re describing it I’m feeling like claustrophobic a little bit.

Jennifer Goldstein

It’s clear plastic so you can see out.

Jessica Matlin

Can you breathe.

Jennifer Goldstein

Yeah, yeah. You don’t want to be in there too long, but …

Jessica Matlin

I want a video of you zorbing!

Jennifer Goldstein

Do I have a video?

Jessica Matlin

That’s so funny.

Jodi Katz

OK, well this has been amazing. Thank you so much for coming.

Jessica Matlin

She’s like, “Zorbing? I’m out!”

Jodi Katz

I want to say thank you to Jessica and Jen at Fat Mascara. Head to iTunes to be one of the thousands or millions of subscribers.

Jennifer Goldstein

Millions! Definitely millions.

Jessica Matlin

After this, millions!

Jodi Katz

Thank you to Math Media [phoenetic 00:47:42] for letting us record in their awesome studio, please check out their show Beauty is your Business, which covers the intersection of technology, business, and innovation on iTunes and GooglePlay. Thanks so much, ladies.

Jessica Matlin

Thank you!

Announcer

Thanks for listening to Where Brains Meet Beauty with Jodi Katz. Tune in again for more authentic conversations with beauty leaders.

 

 

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