Episode 246: Lisa Lundy, Co-Founder and CEO of Complex Creatures

We are beyond thankful that we got to sit down for a chat this week with Lisa Lundy, Co-Founder and CEO of Complex Creatures. Lisa comes from a career in fashion — Tommy Hilfiger and J.Crew jump out from her resume — even working with Bravo star and fashion icon Jenna Lyons back in her J.Crew days! But it was her sister’s breast cancer diagnosis that set Lisa on a trajectory that she likens to a calling.

When Lisa’s sister was diagnosed at the age of 37, it was an eye-opening experience; from learning how to properly administer a self examination, to hearing about the effects of radiation, to finding out about the nature of hereditary breast cancer (there was no history in Lisa’s family of breast cancer), Lisa realized that up until this point, her own breast health had been an afterthought. And if that was true for Lisa, the same must be true for many other women. So Lisa took action.

Lisa and her sister Tara created Complex Creatures as an online community for breast wellness. They provide breast-related knowledge via their Instagram which also dives deep into topics like menopause and perimenopause, which are often censored and even avoided in the wellness space. Lisa mentions that Complex Creatures often gets censored because it’s still not okay to show women’s nipples on the platform-mens nipples are of course fair-game, though. Insert eye-roll emoji…

Lisa recognizes that there is still clearly work to be done in bringing awareness to breast health, but as an activist at heart, she’s in it for the long haul. We can’t wait to see what’s in store for Lisa and Complex Creatures. Be sure to check out this episode wherever you get your podcasts!

Dan Hodgdon
I feel so strongly about helping women, advocating for women, and seeing so many other women stepping up and making an impact where they can.
Lisa Lundy
AnnouncerWelcome to WHERE BRAINS MEET BEAUTY™ hosted by Jodi Katz, Founder and Creative Director of Base Beauty Creative Agency.
Aleni MackareyHi, Jodi, how are you?
Jodi KatzHi, Aleni I can't believe we're at the end of the podcast season. I was just wondering if we could talk about our Base Beauty end of year party at the Madonna concert?
Aleni MackareyYes, this is still on my mind. I love celebrating big moments with our team. And the end of the year is a huge moment. So for anyone who didn't know Madonna was in town in New York City for a celebration tour, and we got to celebrate with our team at the Madonna concert, which was seriously so iconic. There's no other word for it. She is just incredible.
Jodi KatzWell, I am like, not as frequent a concert goer as you are. When we're there. The show didn't start until 11pm. And I am usually way in bed before then.
Aleni MackareyYeah, the the start time was definitely a hindrance to the night. But I feel like our team, we had people in their 20s all the way up to their, you know, 60s, the people in the audience, same thing. Like I saw young kids all the way through every generation, which was so cool. But I think that the late delay, I know Madonna does start late, historically. But the late delay we later found out was due to a technical glitch, which was something we definitely experienced during the show.
Jodi KatzWith the the sound Yeah, the bass was hitting us pretty hard. What I did appreciate from the show was the artistry, like all the ways that that end stage evolved, the dancers were so incredible, it really was like art, you know, on the stage, and I thought that was really beautiful.
Aleni MackareyAnd it was so beautiful. It was a really great night and the the tech issues ended up working out positively for our team because we had time to catch up and chat in person and hang out at the concert venue in our own little area with all of our people before the show.
Jodi KatzThe show was so fun. We like took over a whole section was awesome. I loved it. It was great. We are in our last quarterly theme. This is health innovation. And for the show we're going to talk about today I tried to release a Lundy she's a co founder and CEO of complex creatures. This is a personal care, Brad, dedicated to making breast wellness mainstream with products education and community.
Aleni MackareyI love that it's such an important conversation complex creatures is really changing the conversation around breast care. So asking people about just to think about breast during a monthly exam but year round as a daily part of self care, which is so important.
Jodi KatzThis is such a great conversation leads Lisa was so willing to pull back the curtain on her business. She used to work at J Crew so she was in fashion for years before starting her own business. So I asked her Of course if she knows Jenna Lyons cell lines is on The Real Housewives. And she does. But we talked a lot about what it's like to build a business from the ground up. And you know, she has to keep her day job right now to be able to make room for complex features to grow. So this is a really great episode for anybody sort of in that real struggle zone in their business or in their career feeling like they're kind of up against a wall. Lisa is very revealing in this conversation. I think people would really appreciate it.
Aleni MackareyGreat. It says two important topics, you know, reflecting at the end of the year and possibly if any of our listeners are setting their resolutions for next year, so definitely sounds like there's a lot to learn from this episode. Let's get into it with Lisa Lundy, Episode 246.
Jodi KatzWelcome to WHERE BRAINS MEET BEAUTY™. We are a career journey podcast talking about what it's like to define success and reach for it in the beauty and wellness industries. Today we continue our Health Innovations theme with Lisa Lundy, co founder and CEO of Complex Creatures, a personal care brand dedicated to making breast wellness mainstream prior to complex creatures Lisa built a successful 20 year brand marketing career working with top retailers J Crew, Tommy Hilfiger, Hugo Boss and others in the fashion and beauty industry through products education and community complex creatures is changing the conversation around Breast Care founded by two sisters who lives were impacted by breast cancer. They are bringing solutions to a much neglected space. I'm excited to dive into the conversation about her career journey from fashion to bras tough passion on episode 246. Hi, Lisa. Welcome to WHERE BRAINS MEET BEAUTY™.
Lisa LundyHi, thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be here and connect finally.
Jodi KatzSo full disclosure for everybody listening. I met Lisa and not that long ago at a party. So like yes, you just never know what's gonna happen when you walk into never know, especially at a local party, right?
Lisa LundyJersey party.
Jodi KatzWe were at the Her MD launch and her MD actually Komel Caruso, the co founder of her was on our show. I think we recorded a couple weeks ago. So her episode is probably going live very soon. So it's so cool to meet you and your sister and your co founder at the event. We had a really nice conversation so I want everyone you know to learn more about what you're doing a complex feature. So let's do dive into it. We're at right, we're career journey show. So the first thing my mind thinks about is like, what did you want to be when you grew up when you were a kid?
Lisa LundyA teacher, that was really the first thing I am. And I still love teaching and working with people on things, especially when I've had the chance to work with writers over the years. But yeah, I really want to be a teacher. And I had three younger siblings, I would hold them hostage in my classroom at home. And, yeah, that's really what I what I wanted to do. And I loved school. And my teachers were really always my role models.
Jodi KatzI think it's so nice to hear, because I don't think a lot of people have that experience, actually. Yeah. So when you were getting older heading towards college was teaching still on your mind.
Lisa LundyIt was on my mind. I loved English. I was the editor in chief of our high school newspaper. And I just loved to read and write and went to college and thought I was going to be an English major, and then got really excited. Actually, very, I'll date myself. But my freshman year, Geraldine Ferraro was campaigning for Bill Clinton and came to campus. And I've been a car carrying feminists since I came out of the womb with it. And my my mom was like, what's happening here, and I just I don't know, I went to a women's studies college. And I just got really deep into political science, women's studies in history and was a triple major and thought I was gonna go to law school, and help women and either advocate for them in some way. And we're right policy. And then I ended up working in fashion PR, as one does.
Jodi KatzSo let's talk about that. Yeah, how does one end up in fashion, especially for brands that are as high profile as when you worked? Which was your What was your first fashion job?
Lisa LundyMy first fashion job was at Tommy Hilfiger in the PR department. And it was the assistant to the SVP of global communications, like pre Internet, and it was sort of I was a little bit lost, to be honest, after college, maybe a store longer story for another day, but I was bartending and this woman I went to college with who was also bartending had just gotten a job as a graphic designer at Tommy Hilfiger. And she said, Oh, the PR department says they're looking for somebody. And, you know, three Banana Republic suits later, and I got the interview, and then I never wore the suits again. But yeah, that's kind of how it started. And then, you know, it was a very exciting time. It was the late 90s. And, you know, Tommy Hilfiger was really Pete Cool brand. And I was young and partying and having a good time. And, you know, it just sort of had a little bit of a life of its own.
Jodi KatzSo you worked at J. Crew. And I don't know if you knew this, but I'm a huge Bravo Real Housewives fan. So did you work with Jenna Lyons when you were there?
Lisa LundyI did. Yes. I was very fortunate. To work with Janet. She's such just a creative genius, super talent. And yeah, we I got to work with her very closely. She I really feel like she saw me and appreciated my tone of voice. And really, we really had a lot of fun together. And she, we kind of pushed things in a little bit more of a funny direction or clever than punny. And we had, we had a lot of fun. And then I was fortunate enough to work with her again on lepsy. And when she started that company, she reached out to me a few years ago. So yeah, she's just one of a kind, super smart, fun to work with.
Jodi KatzSo let's pivot to brass you love to career with these high profile brands? How did you come to focus on bras as a priority for your career?
Lisa LundySo my sister Tara, she's one of my sisters, and my now co founder, she was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2016. And we had no family history, she was only 37. You know, we're all really shocked. It was something I don't know, I never thought about much. I had this sort of funny misconception that I had small breasts and that small breasts don't get breast cancer, which is actually not true at all. Anyway. And so going through that process, you know, through that experience with her and then becoming high risk by having a first degree relative and doing this very intense screening process, you know, checking for breast cancer. It just got us thinking, like, why didn't we know this? Why did I not know that 90% of breast cancers aren't hereditary. Why did I not know what dense breasts are? Why do I not really know how to do a self exam even though everybody always tells you to do a self exam there was just so much that kept coming up around this is like such an important part of our bodies. So many people so many women are you know it's an epidemic or getting breast cancer and why is this kind of an afterthought of like mammogram, see you in a year. And then there's other issues beyond Breast Care. answer or for skin undergoing radiation treatment, recovering from surgery. And then I also was then starting I was in perimenopause, and was having really erratic cycles and sore breasts sometimes for three or four weeks at a time. And that's how I started. I'm like, Okay, this is something's off balance, this isn't might be common, but it's not normal. And, you know, Western medicine just kind of says that's like, just part of the deal. But I really looked to more integrative methods, Chinese medicine and our Vedic medicine and found a lot of relief in different herbs, and also lymphatic massage. And so I started making my own oil. And then having had the opportunity and privilege of working with so many great founders, helping them with their businesses, because after I left full time role, I started a consultancy, and I just had so much exposure to, you know, what it takes to start a company and build a brand. And it just kind of saw this, this space. And we started.
Jodi KatzSo not everybody who experiences a health crisis, turns that into a business. So right, right, because you could have learned this stuff and educated yourself and shared it with your friends, why did you choose to actually like, Make this your career?
Lisa LundyIt kind of chose me to be honest, I really do not to sound, it does feel like a calling, you know, kind of circling back to my college years. And what I studied was Women's Studies. And I feel so strongly about, you know, helping women advocating for women and change making change in these air in areas and seeing so many other women stepping up and making an impact where they can. And once I, you know, once I could see some of the stuff that I hadn't seen, and then became so obvious, I thought, I want everybody else to know about this, I want everyone else to feel empowered with their with their own health, understanding their risk, and also, you know, kind of reclaiming our bodies and knowing our bodies. And, you know, I'm an activist at heart. And, you know, one of the other big pieces of this business, or really, our mission is around censorship, and we deal with so much censorship. And so, yeah, just, I don't know, it just kind of happened. And it's funny because it started, I guess, it was February of 2020, I was waiting for us really started putting together like business plan, and Tara was about to have her third baby. And I said, let's start this company. And she said, I'm having a baby, I was like, I have the baby, I'm gonna get started. And then there was a pandemic, and you know, so it's, it's slow going is haven't quite left my other career.
Jodi KatzBut yeah, let's talk about this topic of censorship. Okay. You told us you know, on Instagram, like, you know, it's pretty straightforward. You can show men's nipples, not woman's nipples. So like, what are the things that you're finding as you're bringing this because this is like their last frontier almost like in conversations and personal care? Like we have a lot of conversations about like vaginal health, right skin health, oral health, all the all the other places that all the other spots, menopause periods, sexual health.
Lisa Lundyall of every caught the final frontier of personal care.
Jodi KatzSo what are you finding now? And what's been really surprising to you?
Lisa LundySo it's not surprising to me that that there is censorship, it's sort of stunning. The inequity between, you know, let's say erectile dysfunction can have very suggestive ads, use whatever language they want. It is not a problem. And really, anything in sexual wellness, space, menopause, all of that, and we're not we're by by far, not the only women's health related company that is experiencing this. What I find particularly troubling about breast health, is that it is it can be life and death. Right? And so, yes, of course, sexual wellness men if all these things are not to diminish the importance and that everyone has a right to access to information and improved quality of life and all of that, but it's just stunning to me how much they block, you know, information about breast health. And even when we follow the rules, Instagram had updated meta had updated their policy, saying that if it was cancer related that it was you be allowed to talk about it, but it's still not really the case. You can't show a nipple. So we actually went through you know, we spent a lot of time and money and we rebranded and came up with some clever we thought clever design elements to follow the rules to play by the rules, okay, you don't want to show nipples. We will create something thing that feels elevated and on brand and in line and play by your rules and yet, still not okay. Tara, we posted on the first about that feeling on the first you know, it's like the PSA every month and, you know, raising awareness and reminding people to check their breasts and we post Tara, her husband found her tumor. So it was it really important became another really important point for us to encourage people to know their own bodies. It's so critical and complex creatures posted it and then Tara commented something I was very innocuous when she said she didn't use the word breast there was nothing suggested and for whatever reason, Instagram, like, slapped her wrist and put her on a 24 hour ban, she couldn't comment like anything. So I find that it's really when women when we want to show our bodies or talk about our bodies in a way that is on our terms that is not sexualized. That's sort of the NoNo, like skins and all of those other if it's hyper sexualized or suggestive, sexy, you know, kind of more in the I would say, male gaze sort of mindset. That seems to be okay. But meta.
Jodi KatzYeah, I mean, I'm thinking about all the plastic surgeons out there that are posting their, you know, before and afters on body parts on women. Those are live, right? Yeah. Yeah. All the, you know, gorgeous friends. We have bass beauty and you know, all their content. Some of it. Yeah. being super sexy suggestive, is live, and actionable. So, as a women's studies expert, what do you do to advance this conversation? Because I mean, you're not alone, like Diem and all these other brands have been up against this stuff for many years now. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So what can you do with those other founders as a community to? I mean, let's just be on an equal playing ground with erectile dysfunction, right, let's just totally like how do we get there.
Lisa LundySo keep advocating, keep talking about it, raising awareness. There's an incredible organization called the Center for intimacy justice created by Jackie Rothman, she could be an interesting person for you to chat with. They're doing really incredible work. They put out a really comprehensive study. They're working, they filed a complaint with the FTC against meta, I'm not sure what the status of that is right now. But yeah, it's, um, and then a time So honestly, it makes me want it makes me just want to leave this platform and think about where what else can we what else can we do? How else can we reach people, but really, I think just kind of keeping on in the fight and sharing with your friends, commenting, making sure that even on Instagram, that you're following these brands and kind of sharing them with people, but it's it's very disconcerting and disheartening, and I think you mentioned the post just feeling really exhausted by it's already incredibly challenging to start a new company and a new category and then to have these sort of additional obstacles. You know, it's it's very frustrating. And, you know, and then it's also just, it's, even if it's not, there are non business accounts, breast cancer advocates, or people who do areola tattoos and just showing women's bodies really and normalizing what it looks like post mastectomy or top surgery or, you know, flat closure or breast implant illness. That's a huge, huge community who experiences tremendous censorship and shadow banning. And, you know, they're really just trying to raise awareness and get information out there and help women because women are so gaslit around this issue, it's like, oh, no, no, it's autoimmune. It's this. It's that it's, you know, you're fine. It's fine. And people having like, serious, serious health issues, and then they have their, you know, they get x planted, and suddenly they're, you know, on the road back to health. So, yeah, there's just so like, just get your foot off her neck and I go back to that old quote all the time.
Jodi KatzSo we have a comment from Brooke Tavares. She, I don't know if you know, Brock, but she's the she's very talented creator. I think of her super famous super. You're like one of the most famous people I think, I think about often. And she says that she used to work at meta and they worked really hard to mitigate this stuff. So you want to say it's not metal alone. I mean, this is like Subway ads, billboards, TV commercials, radio commercials, like conversations around topics that concern our health and you know, our wellness as women are not perceived the same And by whoever is in charge of regulatory or whatever department that is makes the decisions about what can run?
Lisa LundyYeah, for sure. And I think there's another again, there's so many different, you know, even getting outside of the social platform. It's like, there's so many people have opinions about our bodies, and about what we can say and how they should look and who gets to talk about them. And where do we show them and you should breast as best breastfeed, but not here and do it there. And, you know, it's like, we just you kind of can't win, right? You can't, we can't win, it feels really, really hard sometimes to just be able to live our lives and take care of ourselves and share information and, you know, make decisions for ourselves about our bodies. We all know all too well, this sort of that conversation that's happening. But yeah, it's, it's tricky.
Jodi KatzSo let's talk about the entrepreneurial journey here. You mentioned you kept your day job, right. So this is still a very small business. Yes. What is the business like? Like? Are you at retail? Are you just on your day to see what like at this stage in your business? What is the priority is it is a priority, like getting the message out less? So selling products? Like what you're spending your time on when like, you know, there's few resources.
Lisa LundyGood question. And it's been a challenging year more challenging, I think, then we thought it's we're coming up on our, you know, second birthday. And you know, the good news is we've sold through, we're sold out of our of our healing balm, which is great. However, we had to we need to find a new lab partner. So we're in process with that. I think we were really we're just continuing to try to get proof of concept, which I do think we have on a very small scale, and get the word out. And I think we do want to be focused a bit more on on the breast cancer community. I think there is. So I think that community is really where we did start, I think the idea of preventative breast care or caring for a part of your body that you've never really thought much about, I think it's still very new to people. So it's just continuing to really get the word out, I would say is our biggest resource shoring up our our inventory. We have one new product coming out. We have a this the lymphatic body brush that we've been selling for several months and we keep selling through selling out of it. And I think people it's funny because they're lymphatic people that work in the lymphatic space or even fascia. This woman, do you know her low rocks said her name, though? Roxburgh. I'm blanking on her name. Anyway, she's fascia fascia specialist. And she said, I've been talking about this for 30 years. And finally someone you know people are catching on. And same with Lisa lebuh. Gaines, Lee of the lymphatic message. And, you know, so I kind of I'm appreciating that they've been at it for that long. I hope we don't have to do this for 30 years before people listen, because I'll be dead by then. But you know, it just it takes time to shift people's thinking. You know, I always joke like, nobody was walking around with bottled water in the 80s. But now we can't go two feet without you know, we must hydrate but I don't know, did you drink any water during your entire childhood? I don't remember that. So it's like things change, we get more information. And the truth is that only 10% of breast cancer is hereditary, which makes about 90% Environmental breast cancer prevention partners has identified 23 different factors that go into your risk. They're an incredible resource. And so when you start to think about really all the things that are either within our control about choices that we make, in terms of food and products, cleaning products, what do we wear on our bodies, I just thought thing today about period underwear having like a chemical in it and that's you know, it's like we just we're not like we have to be more conscious and educate ourselves on what is going in and on our bodies and breasts in particular are their their composition makes them so susceptible to toxins. So even thinking about bras and what is the material you know, does it have forever plastics in it is it's treated with chemicals and then wearing that on your breasts and having them like tight with the underwire? And you know, it's, yeah, it also just bring a little common sense to it, right? Like, if you're restricting this part of your body for 10 hours a day, you know, you might want to like bring some blood flow to it and move the lip because there's all the even knowing that all the lymphatic chains like go through go through our neck and our breasts and our armpits. There's just so much that we don't know about or think about.
Jodi KatzSo I think that the opportunity is to, through your messaging and your cooperation with all these experts is to make the brass check, just like brushing our teeth. Like, we know that I'm supposed to brush my teeth twice a day. So I do it, right. And sometimes they do it more. So isn't it the same thing, it's part of our self care.
Lisa LundyIt's this set, we just wanted to be part the way that you you know, I think about how many products you have in your your vanity and I asked people on how many of those are for breasts. And there's the month that you know, there's the more formal exam, but there is just this every day connection, like just knowing even if it's 30 seconds, just give them a little attention, a little love, move the lymph, and know what your body feels like, you know, really can change your breasts really changed throughout the month. And there's a great book, but describe it as like, kind of like putting up a tent and taking down a tent every month. So as you get go through your cycle, the breast like totally changes. And then if you don't get if you get your period, you know, if you don't get pregnant, then it goes back and changes again. And it goes through a whole other cycle of change throughout pregnancy and then breastfeeding and then when you're finished. So the cells are always, you know, their constant state of change. So to really know, know your body and feel connected. And I think also from kind of a spiritual and emotional level. It's, it's the place of nurturance. And as women, we tend to be the nurturers and give so much and really to like take care of ourselves and connect with ourselves is so important. We hear about you know, self care and you know, varying degrees of what that means that really to connect with your body and check in with yourself is I think so important.
Jodi KatzI love thinking about the bras in the dynamic way that you talked about, like some time to describe mine is like, like a busy or active, right? Like it's like a whole life of its own right in there. And the changes affect my mood, my comfort, right? So but there's not really a lot of like language around this. I don't find doctors really that interested honestly, in like having even just delightful conversations about this. I you know, even if there's nothing wrong, but I'm guessing I'm curious because this is a pretty uphill adventure you're on does it drag you down? Like, you know, how do you actually feel as an entrepreneur, because this is a steep mountain.
Lisa LundyI would say just until recently, I've been like, go go go like I really am. That's just my nature. I'm like, of course, I picked like something hard, I didn't pick up that starting any business is easy, but I had to like, maybe find the hardest thing to do, or not the hardest, it's not the clearest path, it has felt particularly challenging lately, and I've been fortunate to have all my client work, but working more, you know, sort of, it's kind of ebbs and flows, depending on my my client workload. And you know, I'm not a kid, I'm not independently wealthy, I have a mortgage and kids and, you know, all the things that I have to continue to earn a living. And I think early on, I think when you're like, you read about these companies that like start and they're like, you know, rocket ship success and, you know, five year you know, have a deal within five years, and on and on. And I think that's truly the exception. And the more the longer I'm around, and I just, you know, this brand Lilla Fox, beauty brand, she makes these, like really beautiful products, and I hadn't really heard about them till maybe two years ago or something, but she just sent it, they're celebrating nine years. And you know, so I think there it just, it takes time for a lot of, you know, sometimes it doesn't and who knows, like something could shift, you know, in the next month, then we could be on some, you know, rocket ships, so to speak, but it's been a little bit of a slower go. And the other day, I felt really beaten down and I think this was something happen with men, I don't know. But then Tara sent me a text from a woman who we gifted a bomb to she just had surgery, or no she's getting radiation and her skin is just really like banged up and suffering and she sent her a thank you and just, you know, on and on about how nothing has helped her skin like this bomb. And that's why we keep doing it and I just saw someone join who is a friend and I'm sure she I won't name her but you know, she was somewhat indifferent to maybe not loving her breasts that much and through using our products over time, we have changed her relationship to her breasts and that's like it's great to help the people who are inactive treatment or having an immediate problem but to like I think about I don't know do No any woman who like has a straightforward relationship with her breasts, like I don't really. And so I'm thinking about puberty and all the messaging that's put on and imagine if we all felt good about our bodies and our breasts starting at puberty. And like what that might mean for who you are like playing sports, or now playing sports or you know, your sexual identity, and how you relate to, you know, men and women or whoever you want to be intimate with. And I think that there's something I don't know, I want to I actually, that's probably at the root of like, I want to change that, like, I want to help more people feel good about their bodies know their bodies, and be be the ones to define what what their breasts mean to them, and not have that defined for you, you know, there's so often for other. And so keep at it, one boob at a time.
Jodi KatzYou know, I'm an entrepreneur myself. Can I give you a little bit of a story that helped me, please? So first of all, there really aren't overnight successes, like it's, it's total BS, it doesn't happen. Yeah, like maybe things, maybe there's trajectory, that's faster. But that's, you know, if that's happening, it's probably people who had really easy access to capital. Maybe they've done this a few times before people on their team have already been through the journey. So like, my point is, it really doesn't happen. So like despair, compare and despair, like don't compare. But that's not really what I wanted to say. What I wanted to say is, I used to get all up in my head. I've had my business for 16 years. So we're going to start 17 years next year. And amazing. I spent so many years wondering, like, I'm working so hard, why am I not making any money and working so hard, where I might not make any money, and like years and years and years of this, and that really drags me down? Right? So just a few years ago, I was in stopping shop, and I like ran into a neighbor of mine in the bread aisle, like it was turning the corner. And she asked me how my work is. And I said, I'm working to gain money. And then I realized, Wait, like, I've literally realized this in the store food store. If making money was the most important thing to me, I would just have a full time job. But you know, some beauty company, I don't know, right? Like I work at water or something. But that was not what was important. To me. What was important to me is having like wealth of time, you know, lawful flexibility. Those are always been my like, most priorities. So it's like, I mean, this is years and years and years of this thinking of like putting like digging a hole deeper and deeper. I'm not making money, I'm not making money. And then I realized, Wait, that's not why I'm here. So I don't think the money is why you're here. Right? And it will come and it will get easier. I think the why you're here is because like you have a story to tell, and you have a message to share and you have wisdom to give. And that is I think your total focus.
Lisa LundyYeah. Where are you like, last week?
Jodi KatzI was right here. Probably also having a down day.
Lisa LundyBut ya know, that's so it's so helpful, you know?
Jodi Katzyou have your day job, you could Oh, wait like you needed to, you could always just be like, I put this on pause, go get a full time job and take care of my family, you could do that. And until you have to do that you're going to you know, make an income that way you can dedicate X percentage of your time to your pursuit here. And know that like the speed of the journey is like completely irrelevant. It does not matter. Like who's has it like the clock, like is there a clock running?
Lisa Lundy No, just my own my own clock. And so I've created I have created some space around that. And I do think we were on that more typical, like we did a little friends and family raise, we launched we were we were growing and then you know, and then all these different things happen. We were raising money. And then we stopped raising money, you know, and it didn't accelerator and it's like, there, it just seems like oh, there's this one way to do it. And you should get capital and you should keep growing at x, you know, and I think that seems like it's not where we are going right now. And I think that's okay and have to um, almost like it's so my instinct is to just like keep grinding it out and keep going. And I'm actually been like pulling back a little bit more and sort of seeing like, what comes what comes up?
Jodi KatzSo yeah, I don't think you're my goal is rather at this point like that may be like, Yeah, I don't know what the timeline is. That might be two years, three years, five years. Who cares? I think the measurable is how many advocates are you building in the world? Right? So you have a whole bunch of people who joined here today. They've heard your story they probably share with their friends count that like how many more people can you spread this message to? And over time, the voices that you're going to be spreading this message to are higher and higher profile and then they're going to go on to their audiences and share this message. That's the job. The job is Is that like 100%? Because you don't know what the future holds? The future of this business might not actually be in bombs. It might be in books, or you have no idea.
Lisa LundyRight? Totally. Yeah. No, that's true.
Jodi KatzThis has been such a fun discussion. I feel like we could talk for days on this and you can call me anytime like literally just email me. Oh, I will. I'm going to. Okay, we have time for maybe like two round of questions. Oh, this is such a good one. How do you start or learn how to do lymphatic massage?
Lisa Lundy Great question. There are a lot of great resources out there. A lot of them are free, I would say are one of our favorites. And we sell her book Lisa Levitt Gaines Lee. Her handle is the lymphatic message. She wrote a book called The Book of length, and it has different sequences and there she also has lots of great videos. on her Instagram, we have some we need to make more. But it's really it's not as hard as you think it is. There's just a few like you want it to be gentle. There's certain directions to go in. But generally you're you're moving up out into the armpit and away from away from the heart but it really isn't that hard and if you want to DM us or email us happy to give me more instruction.
Jodi KatzThat's a good idea. Okay, this is a really good question too. Do you have a favorite brand of bra?
Lisa LundyI have a few favorites I really love this awareness around non toxic bras so vibrant makes a really great especially if you want a little hearts you know vibrant. Oh, you should check them out. They're non toxic and they are definitely more form fitting like you can really get support from them. And then there's a company called annuity that we really love they're super stretchy she also her sister passed from breast cancer and her idea is that like breast should be the shape of breasts not like jammed into something and they do also support large breasts. And then chosen woven Do you remember Monica Bucky aid Bucky bags, she just started a new company called chosen woven and she's making wool bras and underwear which sounds maybe unusual but again for the non toxic properties and clean clean material putting on your body so those and of course Eric's but she's she's can be a little cost prohibitive sometimes, but we're a big fan and love her and she's super eco conscious and really has a business with so much integrity for I think 20 years now. It's pretty wild. She's, she's a really cool woman.
Jodi KatzWhat does that sound? Yeah.
Lisa LundyEric's Ara que es. Okay, do you remember the? Yeah, this is how to remember the underwear and when we got what was that movie Sofia Coppola Tokyo though Marie?
Jodi KatzYeah, I don't know. But I know you're talking about you know...
Lisa LundyI'm talking about you know, Jacque Scarlett Johansson like the opening scene the underwear and the on her. But anyway, all right, I digress.
Jodi KatzOkay, this is amazing. I feel like we're going to need a part two of this but Lisa definitely it's so fun to do this with you. This is our health theme. Quarter. Fourth quarter is how theme so it's super cool to talk about this. I'm so grateful that I met you at her MD like it was made me so happy. Me too. You're gonna do it, whatever the goal is, is going to happen. What do they say? Like something like don't try to control that outcome. Have you heard of this kind of language?
Lisa LundyYes. I have heard of this. I mean, I mean the actions business not the can't control the outcomes.
Jodi KatzYeah, just just be you just do your thing. Do you? Think he let Yeah, like build these relationships with like minded founders and incredible brands and you know...
Lisa Lundy...lost in translation. Thank you. Natasha lost in translation. Yeah.
Jodi KatzOkay, so, thank you so much to Lisa Lundy, for joining us at 246 episode. And to our fans. Thank you for tuning in. If you liked this episode, please rate and review. As always, make sure you are following us on your favorite podcast platform and Instagram to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and all the fun we have along the way. Peace out everybody. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Lisa. Thanks, Jody. All right. Bye.
AnnouncerThanks for listening to WHERE BRAINS MEET BEAUTY™ with Jodi Katz. Tune in again for more authentic conversations with beauty leaders.

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