11.22.2023
Episode 243: Dr. Jennifer Linder, Board Certified Dermatologist and Founder of Linder Health
Summary
We are so excited to be diving deeper into the Health Innovations theme with Dr. Jennifer Linder, Board Certified Dermatologist, Mohs Skin Care Surgeon, and Founder of Linder Health. As a military kid, Dr. Linder was keenly aware that life can change in an instant, so she learned how to adapt. Science became a huge part of her life, leading her to study engineering in college which scratched a problem-solving itch. The next piece of the puzzle was helping people. Well, living people…
Dr. Linder took a physiology class where she worked with—wait for it—cadavers. Did someone say spooky season? But Dr. Linder saw a learning opportunity where others (this writer) might not. She describes working with the human body as “magic” and this fascination set her on a path towards surgery and dermatology.
Dr. Linder has since completed a fellowship in skin cancer surgery and is now a Mohs Skin Cancer Surgeon. She has even developed her own skincare line—an idea she came up with while on vacation!
To hear more of Dr. Jennifer Linder’s career journey, including her hard and fast breakdown of hyperpigmentation, listen to this episode wherever you get your podcasts!
You can have it all, but maybe not at the same time.
Dr. Jennifer Linder
Transcript
| Announcer | Welcome to WHERE BRAINS MEET BEAUTY™ hosted by Jodi Katz, Founder and Creative Director of Base Beauty Creative Agency. |
| Aleni Mackarey | Hi, Jodi. Welcome back to Q4, our health quarter. |
| Jodi Katz | I just love talking about dermatology and aesthetics. It makes me so happy. |
| Aleni Mackarey | Yeah, we have gotten to meet so many amazing dermatologists and thought leaders in this space. Our episode today talks with Dr. Jennifer Linder, a Board Certified Dermatologist and Mohs Skin Cancer Surgeon and Founder of Linder Health that I'm really excited to learn more about. |
| Jodi Katz | You know, we talked with Dr. Linder about her career journey like why dermatology I always love this question when we're talking to physicians because there's just so many specialties to choose from. And it seems like every DERM has a really fascinating story of how they they found their way to dermatology when we talk a lot about education. And as you know, we've worked so much in this space, it's our happy place. |
| Aleni Mackarey | Oh my gosh, so much great work in this space. I'm just thinking of the brands over the years face reality Elta MD skincare elastin Epionce just just a few of them come to mind. But we have had so many amazing opportunities to really insert that expert voice that people are really craving to hear from into the conversation about skin health. |
| Jodi Katz | Yeah, for our listeners who love dermatology and aesthetics are really going to love this episode with Dr. Linder. She's a real innovator. She has created a lot of success for herself with other endeavors. She was the owner of PCA Skin before it was acquired by Colgate and I'm excited to see how she grows Linder Health. |
| Aleni Mackarey | Great. Let's jump into Episode 243 with Dr. Jennifer Linder. |
| Jodi Katz | Welcome to WHERE BRAINS MEET BEAUTY™. We are a career journey podcast talking about what it's like to define success and reach for it in the beauty and wellness industries. Today we continue our Health Innovations theme with Dr. Jennifer Linder, a board certified dermatologist Mohs Skin Cancer Surgeon and a bio engineer she has over 20 years experience in applied dermatology and aesthetics practices research and development and clinical trials. Dr. Linder has been featured in Elle Magazine and Vogue just to name a few. She's also started her own skincare line, Linder Health. I'm excited to dive into the conversation about her career journey from aerospace to the cream on your face on episode 243. Hi, Dr. Linder. Welcome to WHERE BRAINS MEET BEAUTY™. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Hi, so excited to be here. |
| Jodi Katz | This is such a great segue into our first question. You know, we're a career journey show. So I wanted to be an archaeologist when I was a little kid, what did you want to be? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | So I wanted to be an aerospace engineer or an astronaut. My dad was an Air Force and I spent elementary school where I can actually see the space shuttle take off when it would happen. It was always a spin deal. And I was just absolutely enthralled. And the idea that science could sort of make anything happen just like spark this curiosity that was I think explosive and lead to lifelong love of learning. |
| Jodi Katz | And we got explosive pun intended. You know, I'm reading a book now I just got it from the library. It's called, I think it's called The Six and it's about the first six us female astronauts. So excited to read that. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | I that's on my list as well. And for obvious reasons. And Sally Ride was somebody who I was always particularly involved with. |
| Jodi Katz | Yeah, I bet I would love to watch a launch. I've tried to engineer some family vacations timed with it. But you know, these launches, they get scrubbed and then moved to you know, like, far off dates. So I haven't been able to make it happen. But it is something that is on my list. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | It will happen one day, you just put it out there, right? |
| Jodi Katz | Yeah, let's talk about this, this journey. Right? So you love the idea of Aerospace Engineering, that means math, that means science. Were you going to pursue this, like, were you gonna go to college to be an astronaut? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | I was definitely going to go to college to be an engineer, unfortunately, the challenger did in a very, you know, obviously, super exciting way. The space program was put on a pause when I was 12. And my family just shortly moved to Hawaii. And it was really upsetting for me. And everybody else in my community didn't have the same kind of bond to it. And so it kind of made it aware that like life changes. And I think part of being a military kid is really learning to be flexible. And so I was like, Well, I love science. Let me you know, explore all these different things. And nature was a big piece. We used to hike a ton in Hawaii, it's always been a big part of my life. And so I knew I wanted to just keep pursuing anything kind of in the STEM space. And it was it came down to kind of medicine engineering and end up going to college for engineering. And so that's actually what I graduated with and did not decide in medicine until my junior year. |
| Jodi Katz | Okay, what kind of engineer were you majoring? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | So, I started in chemical engineering and with the idea of going into environmental sciences and Environmental Engineering, and I ended up landing and longterm and bioengineering which gave me like the ability to do all the things that I really loved, which was biology, physics, math, kind of all that juicy stuff that kind of explained the world and problem solving. And I did realize I wanted more of an intense experience with people. And I think that's the reason why the medical part kind of really bubbled up. And I realized like that might actually give me that interaction, that kind of empathy, being able to solve directly with somebody that I was missing when I was just doing traditional engineering. |
| Jodi Katz | So what happened junior year to put you on this path? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | So I a couple different things. One, I took a physiology class that really explains how each of the organ systems work, and along with that was a phenomenal lab. And I had the opportunity, I'm not even sure why I signed up for it, I think was because there was this movie called gross anatomy when I was young. That was a gross anatomy class. And we actually got to work with cadavers. And then you're, you're actually going through the process and finding all the nerves and everything. And it's like, wow, this is the most amazing thing I've ever experienced, like the human body is, it's more magic than that I think anything we can think about or read about, the more you learn, the more exciting it actually gets. And I think that's continued on now to like the cellular level genetics, but genetics barely existed. When I went to med school in terms of as a discipline, it just keeps getting more interesting as time goes by. |
| Jodi Katz | So popular culture influenced you taking this one class, which influenced like the rest of your career, this is wild. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | It's wild. It's like, oh, my, it's just amazing how that all that all works. And I think the other thing is, I had a friend of mine who was a year older than me that actually met in that physiology class. And she was also a bioengineer, and a painter, which is the same thing as me. And it was like, Oh, my gosh, I met somebody who's also in a sorority, who is social and loves to interact, and does bioengineering and paints. And it was like, I think finding somebody who was like, my person in that moment, was quite inspiring. And she was a year older than me, and we started studying together. And it was like, oh, yeah, this like, once I started studying for the MCAT. I was like, oh, yeah, this is this is it? |
| Jodi Katz | So you start medical school, but you don't decide on this specialty right away? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Right. |
| Jodi Katz | So how did you pick dermatology? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | So it was the it was the same friend who was a year older than me that recommended I actually do a dermatology elective, and I did it, it was, like one of those things where you say things really do just, it was like an epiphany moment. So I can actually see what I need to work on or fix or patterns. And I, I love pattern recognition, I think that's awesome engineering thing, we're looking at different things and connected together. And that's really what Durham is. And so it's like, rather than listening to a heartbeat, or looking at imaging, it was a way to really in an empathetic way connect with people, but seeing what you're actually working on. And it was like, it just absolutely was like okay, this is it without with absolute clarity. And I never been to a dermatologist. So kid, I was really lucky. But I was just so excited to find my, my, my place. |
| Jodi Katz | So I did not go to medical school. What happens in a dermatology elective like what are in that first dermatology class? What are you exposed to like specifically like that |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | I would understand, Well, one of the things you do is you spend time in clinic, so you're actually shadowing the residents that are everywhere from second year resident through the fellows. And you're seeing patients and and then the other thing you're doing is you're spent because dermatology is so visually you spent actually a lot of time looking at photographs, slides, a big part of dermatology is actually under the microscope. And their textbooks are that way, we had been exposed a little bit and the book component, which is their first two years of med school, but it was that ability to kind of come in and I think because people are so vulnerable, with DERM issues when you come in and you're taking the different pattern recognition, and you're actually like, Oh, it's this and this is how I can help you. The sense of relief that comes over people is humongous. And I think it was that piece of like, oh gosh, I can really in this moment, help something. And sometimes these things are, you know, from a doctor perspective might seem small, but to the patient. It's humongous like people, you know, this like sometimes don't leave their home when they have terrible skin. And it's like you can actually completely change somebody's outlook, the way they feel about themselves. I think that's what was magical. And then I really love surgery. And DERM is very unique in that it's one of the few fields that really combines surgery as well as internal medicine. And so that part of Mo surgery, which is where we do take skin cancers off and do reconstruction came up and I can do that and it's like then it was just sort of perfect. |
| Jodi Katz | This idea of pattern recognition is really interesting to me because my son is a teenage wrestler, so we go to the dermatologist quite a bit. Yeah. And now that I'm thinking of actually the types of questions in the dorm asks, and every visit, like right there, they're building the building a story in their mind, right like one thing ladders up to another ladders up to another. So now I'm, you know, starting to see what you're talking about, it never occurred to me to think of it that way before. But that's really fascinating. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | So it really is everything from obviously what they've history, what they've been exposed to, to tiny details of the sensation, and often with things like how it presents, whether it presents on your knuckles, or this part or this part of your finger, and in what order can make a huge difference in the actual diagnosis. And so that's really what it is, it's almost being like a little investigator. So if you'd like investigation kind of shows dermatology is really that kind of field. And I really am a big believer in trusting somebody's intuition. Like if a patient comes to me and is really concerned about a spot, I usually almost always biopsy it, because I think people have a gut feeling. And sometimes I feel like our job is to relieve the anxiety, as much as it is to solve the individual problem. And sometimes that's through you figure it out with each individual patient. What is it does that? |
| Jodi Katz | I love that? Yeah, anytime I have like a suspicious, I think it's especially small. Even when the doctor says you're fine. I'm like, let's just test it. Right? Because I want to just know, I don't want to think about it ever again. Right? I want to be done with it. Yeah, |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | I totally understand that. And there's ways that we can work through that I think listening is the most important skill for a doctor or basically in life, right? Listening is the most important thing. |
| Jodi Katz | So that pursuit of dermatology does same sound fascinating, but you've never seen a dermatologist as a kid, right? So this is like really brand new for you. Right? You, I'm sure saw other kinds of doctors eye doctor, right? Yeah. So what was your first time when dermatology became more personal for you? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Well, I did a fellowship and skin cancer surgery as well as laser and I developed melasma. during that timeframe, I grown up in Florida and Hawaii, and then stress blasts was shut up. And of course, I lasered it, because I'm certain laser fellowship, and the first time it got better. And the second time, it got much worse. And as a result, I got sort of hyper interested in pigmentation and how to take care of it. And during my first year out of fellowship, I was getting more and more frustrated. And that's actually when I discovered chemical peeling agents like that, often doing them superficially over time can lift them and that was the thing was like, Oh my gosh, you know, really sort of that those big empathy moments and realizing I think makes us all better, better physicians. |
| Jodi Katz | So you're learning about lasers and the new laser, the new laser yourself, and it works. But then you lose yourself again. And it went not good. Right. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | So this is what we actually talked about lasers, because lasers have so much heat in them, they actually can make melasma worse, and so you have to be very, very cautious with plasma, like you'll find most people will only do it after people have failed lots of different things, or were truly laser experts. So I actually advise everybody that has melasma specifically, avoid lasers. And just because it gets better once doesn't mean that the third, fourth, fifth time, it's not going to get significantly worse. It's like do with caution. And that's actually why I started exploring a whole different thought process which I hadn't really gotten into before which was cosmeceuticals and skincare and, and chemical peels, and it sort of opened up this whole other new opening for me to kind of explore and learn about, |
| Jodi Katz | okay, this is thank you for segwaying because this is actually a really perfect segue. When does it turn a dermatologist in training or in practice, start to learn about all the groups and the ingredients and all the stuff like all the topical stuff. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | So we deeply learn about obviously the prescription thing. So anything that's going to like that has to be prescribed. And now I think the younger generations now really do learn about skincare versus my generation. It was sunscreen was the end of it like Kathy fields and kit and Katie Rodan were both friends. And they talked about how the professors were actually couldn't even believe they were considering making this skincare product. And we've learned that like skincare is as important as the prescriptions as well, like I know one of the sort of absolute experts and acne will talk about getting somebody on good skincare because often they've destroyed the barrier by doing the wrong skincare products, and you need to get the barrier healthy first and then start doing the prescription things. So you learned about it now from day one. And like all the different ointments versus creams and all these different things and how they work together. And that's fundamentally what a dermatologist is, is learning how to get the best way to distribute an active ingredient into the skin. |
| Jodi Katz | But they also need to know what does not work well together. Right? Almost like a pharmacist, right? They have to know about all the we call that contract and is that what's the contraindication? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | right yep, Very good. |
| Jodi Katz | So were you learning that in training? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Yes, absolutely. So that's sort of the fundamentals of it. |
| Jodi Katz | I mean, there's a lot of dermatologists, there's not a lot of dermatologists who decide to develop their own products, right and their own formulas. So why, why did you do that? Like what you're up to it. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | So, like I had seen peels work, and it may cause me, I was on vacation, and went and visited a company that was called physicians choice of Arizona that made some peels and some skincare. And I talked to the r&d person, because I had this idea for sunscreen that I wanted to do. And she and I just started clicking and over time, develop more and more relationship with that company. And in the end, my partner of 28 years, who's a Harvard MBA, I decided to actually purchase that little nugget of at a company. And then we turn that into what is now known as PCA skin. And so the whole process of that just sort of gave me a whole new laboratory to work with and I had a minor in Chemistry, I love this stuff. And realize that by making better skincare, better Carbuncle peels, we can actually really, truly affect a lot of people's lives and make make the process better. And so just sort of, it was a curiosity that sort of exploded over time. And that was in 2005. Ish. |
| Jodi Katz | So you're a practicing dermatologist, and then you become a business owner, are you still practicing dermatology at that time? Yes, |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | so I actually built a practice, and including a most surgical suite next door to the corporate office. So like, even the first tiny little negative company, I'm talking, we had the old school screens that, you know, were this deep, and then, you know, of course, kept growing and expanding. And I always kept my practice next to the office so that I could see patients run over during the meeting during lunch, or at the end of the day, could run clinical trials through that process as well and really be very intimately involved. And it kind of, it also sort of gave me the opportunity to be so super connected to everyone that we worked with, because it it really is a family. And I do think sort of the greatest gift in life is enjoying the people you work with |
| Jodi Katz | what you did at that time is really like the dream, I feel like for a lot of derms now, and you see many derms launching their own product lines, like being able to maintain their practice. So they can, you know, be super close to the patient, which, you know, seems to be, you know, their real passion, but then bring their expertise forward, so that more people can take advantage of expertise, right through product. Why in 2005 This wasn't like, you know, in vogue, like, this wasn't what people wanted to do. I mean, you must not have known a lot of other derms, who were doing what you were doing. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | No, there wasn't that many, I think I was just very lucky, sort of like, right place, right time, right people. And I think it became, it was really fun. It was challenging. I love teaching, and it really gave me the opportunity to do that. And so it was kind of hit all the buttons of everything that, sort of, I had wanted to do and kind of didn't realize. |
| Jodi Katz | So why leave PCA behind? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Well, my husband and I after we'd been together for 13 years, finally decided to have our first child. The company was in 72 countries, more than 15,000 offices. And like many people that are a little bit older, when they're having kids, sometimes it takes a while to mistakes, multiple pregnancies, and it was more challenging. And then I think it was also at the time I propped like, honestly, it probably truly was birthed out like I sometimes like to say it took a candle, I posted a couple things and took a blowtorch in the middle. And I was I had an amazing team around me, right, like I had amazing people help me with the family side. And I used to say I had my right hand, my left hand and then you know, somebody grown out of my back as well. And that made it all possible. And then I realized I kind of wanted to spend a little bit more time with my kids and with my husband and sort of taking a little step back from things. And we found a partner that seemed like the perfect partner that would really continue to believe in the brand support it, support the science. And that was the reason why it's sort of at some point, you realize that your child needs to go off to college. And it's really hard to let them go. But there's an opportunity for them to grow in a whole other way as well. |
| Jodi Katz | That's a beautiful way of putting it. I started my own company because I wanted to be a mom the way I wanted to be a mom. I didn't know what that meant. But I, this is 17 years ago. I was so, I looked around. I'm like that's nope, no one's gonna give me that opportunity. So I just made it for myself. And I'm really grateful that I listened to myself. Yeah, because it’s, but it's, you know, it's hard. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | It's really hard it is I like to say, finding the balance between motherhood, friendship partner all the elements in life and are taking care of ourselves. And I think that's the thing that I've really learned over the last decade is how to do that in a thoughtful way. It's like a final sort of curve, you know, or teeter totter, it's never perfectly balanced it, you know, sometimes you're better at some things and you're better others, you can have it all, but maybe not all at the same time. And, and that it's sort of a, there's a little bit of give and take, and you do have to rely on people. And you have to really trust the people around you, as well as trusting yourself. And that's how I like the idea of sort of, there's an idea of the good enough mother. And that was the thing that I had to realize, like I needed to be good enough across multiple fields, rather than I think when I was younger, I strove for perfection. And that's not healthy. And I would not recommend that to anyone. I think we can keep striving to improve and be lifelong learners. But perfection is a figment of our imagination, it doesn't really exist. |
| Jodi Katz | Dr. Linder, I am a recovering perfectionist. And I agree, I actually say that the word perfect perfection even be a word like it's, why is it even our vocabulary is so you know, I think I believe in unicorns, more than I believe in perfection, very true. But I, you know, I suffered for a long time, it's painful, right? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | It's, it's painful to like to feel like you're striving for perfection, because you can never meet it right, there's always something you can do better. And then it's like, and then I found, it was not good for my mental health. And that was one of the reasons why it was good for me to take a pause. And, and sort of, I feel like that's the reason for doing this second skincare company, is it's an opportunity to sort of take everything I've learned over my 50 years and do it in a better way. And a way that's beneficial for me, it's beneficial for the clinicians we work with, and just try to keep improving. |
| Jodi Katz | I was with a talking to a friend who is an entrepreneur many times over and she recently sold her business. And I was asking her, you know what she's doing now. And she was like, literally glowing, talking about a new business that she's starting. And I asked her, if it feels different this time around, and then she glowed even more. So tell me how it feels different this time around. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | So it's, it's more fun, right? It's sort of there's also this thing about like, when you've starting from a fresh slate, you have to decide exactly what it is that you want to do. And for me, it came down to I feel like I you know, in the exam room, it's about connecting, listening, having empathy and figuring out what somebody needs. And I feel like now, I understand, at the same time has been opening to keep listening, like what do the clinicians need that I work with? How can I make their lives better? By producing peels that don't have all the problems that we used to deal with? Like they hadn't been updated in almost 100 years? What do you do around clinical homecare to also make it easier, so that you can educate in an easier way with the patient that you can just sort of have. So it just gave me a chance to like, start fresh without all the baggage is kind of like, you know, when you over time, you just like let go of stuff like it's it's that same thing of letting go of perfection. It's like, okay, like, let's just do this, in a way that makes sense. And also having the people around me that I really love the people I work with every day are phenomenal women and men that inspire me on a daily basis. And that's what makes it more fun. It's also more nimble, and it's there's not as much pressure the second time. And there's also the same like once you've seen Paris, you've seen Paris like, like, once you've seen something and done it, you're like, oh, it's doable. And I think that's the reason like exactly like, you know, podcasts and she was like this is that you can see other people do things. I'm just like, oh, I can do that. Yeah, so those are kind of the reasons why I guess. |
| Jodi Katz | Well, this idea of perfectionism, I think that the torture, at least that I felt was my ideas of what was perfect was really about meeting other people's needs. It wasn't about my definition, right? It was like hoping that they like it. So I would imagine this second initiative of yours, maybe care less about what other people think is that possible? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | It is because it's one I do believe that with a product line having knowing exactly your niche and exactly what you're trying to solve, rather than trying to be something for everybody is important. It needs to really personally align in the deepest way. Like I think that's everybody on my team. It's all about alignment from the top down how we develop, how we market, it's about integrity, all those kinds of things. And so, knowing that that's what it's about, rather than necessarily trying to solve every trend every, you know, every different piece and so it does come back to like okay, what So what's important to me and my team, so isn't about solving everybody else, because everybody has a different definition of perfection, right? And it's just lead you running around like a hamster on a crazy wheel. |
| Jodi Katz | Let's go back to your goals at the beginning your career you get out of medical school, like you start, you know, do you develop your own practice in dermatology? If I could have asked you this question that year and said, What is your what is your big goal in this career of yours? What would you have said? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | I think at that point in time, when I was first out, it was about creating a practice that really had impact on my community. And then combined with the opportunity to teach educate, like I've always loved to be on the podium, and educate in that way, whether or not it was around education around surgery. And then with time, obviously, cosmeceuticals and ingredients really became sort of my niche. So I think that was an opportunity to teach, and really have an impact on the community that sort of the doubt sort of where that purpose piece comes in. |
| Jodi Katz | That's really interesting to me, because you did it. Like, right, you had an opportunity through, of course, your individual patients, but on a much larger scale PCA to educate, like large communities, right of SDS and their clients, and participate in clinical studies, and you know, everything that came with it, do you think you would have known then that you would accomplish all those goals? Like, were you confident? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | I was confident. And then I guess I was a pretty confident kid, that I believed in myself, I was lucky that my parents really inspired me that way. I mentioned my partner, I've been together since my first year of med school. And he always, I always knew he had my back that he believed in me and I think that always makes a difference when you have people around you who do and even back then dermatology was has always been, you know, a challenging field to get into. He's like, go for it. You're, you're great at this, it like totally connects with you. And, and sometimes just having somebody you know, one person be your cheerleader, it makes you make all the difference in the world. |
| Jodi Katz | I love that. Well, okay, my last question for this interview portion of the show, you know, with PCA, you took a step back, because you really wanted to focus on other avenues your life, as you build out Linder, health, how have you, I guess, reconstructed, what work looks like to make sure you can maintain what you started. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | So great question. And I think because this Linder Health came out of COVID like it was it truly was my COVID baby and interacting with old friends who I've worked with previously. And we were all really obsessed with longevity, senescence cells, how do we think long term and do things better? And just even from an own health wellness minute, like sort of how do we combine all these different things, and it really just came out of like, you know, drinking wine over zoom. And so as a result, we've all learned how to kind of function in a online world. So my team is remote. My, my current practice that I'm sitting in now is actually on the ground floor of my house in San Francisco. And this is where I see patients and I can do smaller trials and things here as well. And so then, you know, when my kids come home, at the end of the day, they're here and my, you know, my kids see me, literally playing with chemistry and and doing all these things and interacting with the teams. And I think that's also good for I have three daughters, and I think it's good for girls to witness their moms and their parents just as much as important their dads to to be enacted to do that. And it's the same thing for my 10. So we created this way of interacting with each other and being remote, we still do a lot of offsites together, so that we can actually spend face to FaceTime and look each other in the eyes and and have that. But that's that's how we do it sort of there's happily some good things that that came out of COVID. And I think that's learning how we can do this remotely. And it's, it's also inspired me to educate through this medium. And that's something I'm getting comfortable comfortable to, because this wasn't a thing back when I was you know, really in it full time it was you know, we went to lots and lots of meetings and, and so it's learning to educate this way. And so that's what makes it possible and just being kinder to myself, having compassion, empathy, makes it a lot easier to be connected with both my team and my family. |
| Jodi Katz | Before we close out this interview portion of the show, I want to give a shout out to Lisa G on your team because she's who connected us and she has been a friend to me for quite some time. So I'm glad that we got to do this together today. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | She's an amazing CEO. I love having her on my team. We have phenomenal women all working together at the core. |
| Jodi Katz | So this wraps our interview segment of the show. Thank you to Dr. Jennifer Linder for You're wise answers. And so we know that education is very important to you around skincare. And we also want to make sure that we can have a little fun as we educate ourselves. So we do have a speed round of fun skincare questions. Some of these are actually my passions. And some from the team, you can answer with one word answers you can answer, you know, with with some length if you want, but I know hyper pigmentation is a really important topic for you. And maybe I will be able to say the word hyperpigmentation. But, yeah, let's try for like either 110 word responses. Okay. And then we can always dive deeper later offline. Okay, what is your quick and easy definition for what is hyperpigmentation? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | If you can think about it is areas on the skin that are darker than the remaining skin? Whether or not it is a patch, or a little spot? That's not related to being a mole? |
| Jodi Katz | Does blue light increase hyperpigmentation? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | It can in certain situations, particularly really, really bad melasma. But it would take a lot. Yeah, I don't think your computer's probably not to do it. |
| Jodi Katz | Okay, so can sleeping with makeup on impact hyperpigmentation? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Not that I'm aware of, except for the fact that it's not really healthy for your skin overall. |
| Jodi Katz | Do LED light face masks help or hurt hyperpigmentation? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Well, they can benefit inflammation and so in that sense, inflammation does have a role in hyperpigmentation, especially with post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation or with melasma. |
| Jodi Katz | So it can have some benefit, which color light probably? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Red in the end would have the most benefit because it has the most effect on inflammation. |
| Jodi Katz | Can anything actually get rid of hyperpigmentation? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Yes, absolutely. |
| Jodi Katz | Wait, tell me the answer. What is actually going to get rid of hyperpigmentation? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Okay, so of course, it depends on what it is, is it post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation so after you have a scar and it gets red, and then I get too brown, isn't melasma is it for longterm some damage. In the end, the things that work the best are appeals done serially religious use of sunscreen, like pigmentation is your thing, do not leave your house without sunscreen on doing of course ingredients and how those ingredients are put together into products and make it different. So things like kojic acid, TSA hydroquinone, which is the prescription one I met a gigantic fan of it, I think we moved can moved on from it. But there's lots and lots of different things out there that can make a difference. |
| Jodi Katz | Now I can segue to sunscreen. So okay, our sunscreen ingredients safe. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Yes, I feel a hands down, absolutely believe sunscreen, is safe. |
| Jodi Katz | Does protective clothing work as well as sunscreen? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Yes. But again, the way the easiest way to look at protective clothing to see how much benefit it has. If you hold up that piece of clothing to the light, that kind of gives you an idea like a white t shirt, a lot of light comes through, not going to do much denim is like an SPF of 2000 or something. So that's a quick and easy way to do it. Some products, of course, are actually chemical ingredients that are planted into products, there's some washes, you can do and those can have even more effect. But my kids all wear the as myself wear the long sleeve rash guards on top of feeding tubes more outside. |
| Jodi Katz | I was really, really curious about the the LED lights, because there's so many different lights, different colors. And I feel like it's really hard to understand if those would help or hurt. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | There is definitely a big difference in quality, right? Like random product bought off of Amazon is very different than what you're going to see in a clinical practice that medical grade, how long you use it, how consistent we are with it. It's I think sort of some cutting edge science and but things can absolutely make a difference. But it has to be done with the right product in the right place. And usually honestly, if and if you're really going up and it's about hyperpigmentation, you really need to be doing it in concert with other things like peels and, and home care. Like that's especially melasma is almost a lifelong thing, right? It's going to come and go, you can have treated and make it go away and you get three days, you know, a couple of hours out in the sun where you've not been careful and they can just come back on hot yoga for some people. It's the worst thing they could possibly do. So figuring out what your triggers are as well is so critical. |
| Jodi Katz | Awesome. Thank you for playing our hyperpigmentation Q&A. Now we have fan questions. So the first fan question, this is such a good one. Is expired sunscreen better than no sunscreen at all? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | I would say yes. Because, absolutely, because it's sort of you know, the you know, that two-year timeframe is put on sunscreen is that you know it's absolutely has an absolute SPF number that's on there and the with this prospect for not that, yes, expired is better than nothing in my opinion, of course, you know, the FDA is gonna say no, go and get more but, you know, be reasonable, common sense. |
| Jodi Katz | Here's a great question, do you want to go up into space now? |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | So I think the way it's currently available, I'm not going to be a first adopter in this thing. Because I do have three children that I'm responsible for. I think motherhood changes those things a little bit, too. But in a few years, when it's like proven to be safer, I mean, airline travel used to be very dangerous. And now there hasn't been a major issue in the, you know, the longest time with commercial airlines. And so I think we'll get that way with space. And then I would absolutely love to. There's, there's something called the, the overview, this experience that astronauts describe when they see the Earth and like you see, the totality of it, that kind of like, I do believe kind of a oneness of connection. And I think that is probably one of the most awe-inspiring things that people have ever talked about. |
| Jodi Katz | So what advice do you have for time management and managing stress? This is a good question. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | It's an amazing question. So alarms on my, on my phone, and I will Google Calendar, literally, every one of my kids has their own color that we share, there's probably I probably have 10 different calendars, right, and then like to turn them on and off, I set days that I do kind of specific things days, we're about reading and deep diving days that are kind of for calendaring. And that kind of helps make it better. Having a phenomenal team around me makes it being able to delegate and trust other people makes everything else kind of possible as well. |
| Jodi Katz | I am such a fan of the calendar, I'm if it's not on my calendar, it doesn't exist, basically. So even if it's just to remind myself to do something, I put it on the calendar, I can always move it, I might not do it that moment, but and then sometimes my calendar will just like, you know, freak out and like delete something. And I'm like really stuck. But like for sure I live and breathe by my calendar. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | The other thing I do is I make sure that everybody knows that it's I try to control the response time that people expect. So people in their my life know that email is not the best way to communicate with me. If you need something, you know, texting is a better way, but don't expect me to respond immediately. It might be the next day, it might be several days later. And so I think, unfortunately, in this day and age, I think people have gotten words like it has to be immediate response or else. And that is what actually kind of attaches us to leash to our electronics. And so which I think is bad, because then you're not necessarily present with the people that you're with. And so I mean, I'll also, you know, set responses out there, like, you know, I'm going to be not very responsive for the next two weeks, or whatever it may be. So that I can be more focused on what is important, because there's that whole idea of urgent versus important. And we often get kind of messed up and prioritize the urgent versus the important. And I was the classic person into this all the time. And I'm still working really hard to get that balance back into place. |
| Jodi Katz | Thank you for revealing that I actually was just working with my coach and I had my own business for 17 years. And he asked me like, could I have gotten to this place that I'm at right now faster? And I told him, yeah, I totally could have done it faster. But then I wouldn't have been doing the other things that are the reason why I started my own business. Right. So like, what am I in a rush for? You know, and we only because people around us, you know, the other ambitious people that I surround myself with, they might be in a rush, but doesn't mean I need to be in a rush. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | I think that's the most I mean, that is hits the nail on the head completely right? Because that is about you deciding what is success to you. And like you said, the reason you started the business was to be the kind of mom you want it to be. And so being hyper aware of that. And you kind of sort of keep that in your thought processes, sort of. And that's why you know, money isn't the best way to define what success is. |
| Jodi Katz | I'll leave you with one last thought I used to do a lot of running races, and you know, the whistle or whatever would go off and like everybody would just blast off right? And I'd be like, wait, I'm not moving as fast as they are. Am I supposed to be moving as fast as they are? But I'm like, Well, no, that's not that's not how I run. But I had to like really talk to myself through it right? Like no, I don't have to go faster just because they're going faster, they're going faster for whatever reason. And I'm just gonna go and I feel like that's how I've been running my business. I'm just you know, this is this is the way my legs are moving. This is what I'm what I want to be doing the way I want to be doing it. And then yeah, I get to the finish line and some of those people who blast it off For, you know, walking behind me because they, you know, use all their energy at the start. And some people, you know, have pasted me times three or four and that's awesome. But that's a picture I keep in my head like I don't have to just blast off just because everybody else is. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Those are the absolute wisest words, like ever. It's it's absolute truth, sort of why are we letting somebody else set the pace for us? We are our own person. We nobody knows us better than we do. And how do we enjoy the journey? Like if you're not enjoying the process? Then, like you hit the endpoint and then like, Is that is that it? So instead, it's like if you enjoy every day, and every day is something to celebrate. And I think that's awesome, because like, what are the moments to celebrate at the end of each day? |
| Jodi Katz | Dr. Linder, this is so incredible. Thank you for joining us. This is our 243rd episode. And thank you to our fans for listening. And if you'd liked this episode, please rate and review and as always, make sure you're following us on your favorite podcast platform and Instagram to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and all the fun we have along the way. Dr. Linder, thank you so much. Thank you everybody for joining us. |
| Dr. Jennifer Linder | Bye. |
| Announcer | Thanks for listening to WHERE BRAINS MEET BEAUTY™ with Jodi Katz. Tune in again for more authentic conversations with beauty leaders. |
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