Episode 226: Mary van Praag, CEO of Milani Cosmetics

Milani Cosmetics CEO, Mary van Praag, was born with an entrepreneurial spirit that has served her well. We chatted with Mary about everything from her journey “selling Avon on the locker block” to being a leader who listens.

“Sales teaches you to find the win/win in most situations…when you get a no, how do you find the win in those situations?” Mary’s positive attitude about turning the dreaded “no” in sales into a teaching moment is a refreshing take. “I try to listen. How do you get that person to be on the same path as you?”

Mary’s winning attitude may have led her to a leadership role, but she doesn’t let that get to her head. “My job is to get the best out of everybody, CEO happens to be what my title is.”

“I’m one of those leaders who likes a good turnaround story. I thrive when I see other people’s success. I believe in building relationships and fostering this growth together.”

What does Mary think of the #quietquitting trend? How does she see the upside when hearing “no” during a sale? And should you move to a new city for that job? To hear Mary’s answers to these questions and much more, check out the full episode!

Dan Hodgdon
Jodi KatzHello, Aleni.
Aleni MackareyHello, Jodi.
Jodi KatzWelcome back to the banter phase of WHERE BRAINS MEET BEAUTY™ Podcast. It’s been a long time since you’ve been here.
Aleni MackareyI’m so happy to be back for the banter section. I feel like I’m more behind the scenes with the podcast now. And I love getting to have these conversations.
Jodi KatzWell, for anyone who’s new to listening to our show, Aleni’s been our Executive Producer from the very, very beginning, from when when we googled six years ago how to make a podcast. She’s been integral in making sure we up-level the content, up-level the way we communicate about our guests, and also our partnerships. We have incredible partnerships for the podcast.
Aleni MackareyWe do, yeah. We have some great partnerships, one happening right now, actually, for an event on Beauty, Tech and Innovation. So if you are an event or a person who wants to get your message out to our listeners, feel free to reach out to us after the show.
Jodi KatzWell, this is gonna be a really great episode for people, and it was super fun for me to make. And I want to start with the fact that I met this guest, Mary, over LinkedIn.
Aleni MackareyOh, I love that.
Jodi KatzSo, LinkedIn works, folks.
Aleni MackareyYes. The power of LinkedIn. You always say LinkedIn are where our people are. And this is the proof.
Jodi KatzRight. So I just messaged someone I didn’t know, the CEO of a brand that I admired, and said, “Hi, can I get to know you?” And she said, “Yes.” And through that, I also got to meet her team and share the wisdom of our book, Facing the Seduction of Success, with her team and her mentor circle, and then have her as a guest on the podcast, but also as a client at Base Beauty, which is even more exciting for me.
Aleni MackareyIt’s so amazing, because the whole mission of this podcast was really to build the network and humanize the industry, and this is like seeing the dots connecting at work. And we worked with a career coach at Base Beauty a couple weeks ago who talked about how we are in the age of digital right now, and we have access to so many people who you might think you don’t have access to. And you just talking with Mary on LinkedIn is so cool to me. I love it.
Jodi KatzLet’s talk a little bit about this theme, we call it C-Suite, for quarter one this year. When you think of CEOs and CMOs, Aleni, early in your career, what came to mind?
Aleni MackareyIt’s like the top dog. It’s like the big boss. It feel like a huge, big job, and just feels like this powerful person at the top of the ladder that you probably don’t even see all day long, is what I would picture.
Jodi KatzThat’s totally what I thought too in my career only on. I just thought CEOs are untouchable. I thought they don’t go to the food store. They don’t do their own shopping. They don’t fold their own towels. And, you know, fast-forward so many years, after 16 years of owning Base Beauty and six years of this podcast, I can say that we’re all just human beings.
Aleni MackareyYeah. I totally agree. And the show really tells us that message over and over. Everybody has the same things going on. It’s like, in the magazines we used to read, like Starz, they’re just like us. This is the same thing. Everybody’s out there doing the same thing.
Jodi KatzRight. And everybody has to hustle. Everybody has to work hard. And it hasn’t come easy for anyone, right? So, someone who’s running a brand that you admire, reach out to them on LinkedIn and tell them that. You don’t have to have any ulterior motives about sharing the optimism. And I bet that person will be really grateful to get that message.
Aleni MackareyI love that. Yeah, that’s so nice to spread the word, give somebody a little happy smile during their day.
Jodi KatzSo, is there anything you want to know about Mary before we start this episode?
Aleni MackareyWell, first of all, I guess we should say that the Milani team is a client of our agency, Base Beauty, so it’s really exciting to hear the story behind Mary on the show. I think our team’s really excited to listen to it as well. You were all just there in LA, right, meeting the team?
Jodi KatzYes. So, COVID kind of spoiled the idea of being in person with clients for extended periods of time. And we really, really fight hard as an agency to get that time with a client, to work together in the same room, socialize together, get to know each other on a human level beyond the work. And it just shows the power of those connections, when you can spend two, three days together as a team. Went to LA, went to Milani headquarters, spent really good quality time learning about their brand, understanding their goals. I just love it. It’s my favorite part of the job, is getting to be together with other smart people.
Aleni MackareyIt’s so important to have that face time and to be in the same room, especially when you travel and get to go to a beautiful, cool, fun place like LA. It’s just really fun to all have the minds in the room. And I think it’s fun, too, even when we’re on the other end of it and people are visiting us, you love to get to take people out to dinner and have that time together, and just really connect as people outside of the work. So, it’s so cool that we got to do that.
Jodi KatzMy favorite part is being able to take clients to Broadway shows.
Aleni MackareyOh yes. Uh-huh. Yes. So much fun. There’s a lot of good things coming up this spring. We’ll have to see who wants to come with us.
Jodi KatzSo you think we should get to it?
Aleni MackareyYeah, let’s get to it. But I have one burning question. I heard at the end of this episode, you and Mary talking about dogs. Can we have a little preview, what’s happening in that world?
Jodi KatzWell, Mary has dogs, and she loves her dogs. And it’s a topic of conversation in our household. So I think more will be revealed.
Aleni MackareyOh, very exciting. Okay. I’m staying tuned.
Jodi KatzSo let’s get to it. This is Mary van Praag, CEO of Milani.
Welcome back to WHERE BRAINS MEET BEAUTY™. I’m so excited to welcome our third guest of our C-Suite theme. She’s someone I’ve gotten to spend a lot of time with recently, and is the CEO of the very popular brand Milani Cosmetics. She’s the one and only Mary van Praag. Mary has spent most of her career in the beauty industry, at Perricone MD, OPI, Neutrogena, and Revlon. And she and I met on LinkedIn! And she’s always very active in Women in Retail, which is an organization I joined because I was inspired by Mary. Please welcome Mary to the show.
Mary van PraagThanks, Jodi. I love the fact that we met at LinkedIn because it just shows the power of networking.
Jodi KatzI feel like LinkedIn just keeps surprising me, because during COVID, when we couldn’t have work events and stuff, I was really missing the connections, because that’s really the best part of our industry, right, is getting to just meet and talk to smart, fun people. And I just started LinkedIn-ing people to say, “Hey, would you like to talk?” And I was surprised, 99% of people totally were willing to do it. There was only one person who was really nervous, and she’s like, “What are your intentions?” [Laughter] But she took the call anyway. And it just reminds me, if you want to meet someone, you want to ask questions, you have to do it. No one’s gonna do it for you.
Mary van PraagI love that. I give that mentoring advice, is just seek out someone you admire or a skill set that you have, and ask them for coffee. What are they gonna say? What’s the worst that could happen? They say no.
Jodi KatzMm-hmm. Or they just don’t respond, because their inbox is flooded, which happens to all of us. Okay. So at the beginning of our show, I always ask my favorite question, because we’re a career journey show, and I want to journey all the way back in time. So maybe think back to when you’re 11, 12 years old. What do you want to be when you grow up?
Mary van PraagOh, wow. What a question. I’m probably gonna leapfrog into high school, because that’s when I first formed my opinion of this. My dad was a career Hewlett Packard guy. Studied engineering and was in sales. And my mom sold real estate. So I always had this love of sales and the commercial aspects. And I may have mentioned this to you, but I sold Avon even when you really weren’t supposed to. I was in high school. I had my mom sign her up. She signed herself up. And I was a bootleg Avon lady. And I had this passion. I just loved, loved it, because I loved the product, the catalog, the samples. I loved ringing up how much could I sell in that month. And so, I just loved it. And so, I think, well, I studied business in school, but I have this love of marketing. And I entered my career in consumer products in largely beauty. But it all stemmed back from the influences of my parents, and importantly, that little, I call it selling Avon on the locker block.
Jodi KatzOkay, so you’re at your locker right in between classes, and you’re selling lip gloss?
Mary van PraagBasically. I was passing out catalogs. And I actually was pretty industrious. I actually recruited a couple people in my locker block to sell for me. I’m the one that placed the orders, stapled the little white bags together, put the little sample in, and just had a lot of fun with it. But I realized I was rather, I guess, entrepreneurial at that time.
Jodi KatzDo you feel like sales comes naturally to you?
Mary van PraagWell, I started my career in sales. I always say I was dumped into the state of Louisville, Kentucky. I think I was the only female in most lobbies and meeting rooms. Not that I didn’t ask a lot of questions. But I think sales just kind of teaches you to get out there and influence and find the win-win in any situation. And I always loved sales. I loved developing the partnerships, coming up with the commercial aspects, the presentation. When you get a no, how do you handle an objection? And I just always had a passion for it and a love for it. And it ended up being a big part of my career, at least the two-thirds of the journey so far. My roots started in sales.
Jodi KatzAs someone who’s not—I’m not a natural-born salesperson, I found the navigating objections always to be very intense and emotionally exhausting. So I’m curious if you got really good advice early on around how to navigate when people say no.
Mary van PraagWell, I always say, hey, the “no” really starts the sale. And not to be—but you have to understand, I think listening first and foremost and really understanding where the individual’s coming from and why they’re not leaning into your idea or the opportunity. And then finding that balanced ground where it’s really a win-win and a collective solution. And most of my endeavors were around the consumer, and thinking about how do we serve our consumer better, and big box partnerships with the likes of Walmart and Target and Ulta, and finding a way to serve that consumer. So, how do we both get on the same page to do that? And usually, it was through a product or a service. And sometimes the “no,” though, is the thrill of it, right? That’s when you really start to think about how do you come back with the right facts and figures? How do you come out with the right compelling evidence to get the person to be on the same path as you?
Jodi KatzSo what’s the right next step after you hear the “no”? What happens next for you?
Mary van PraagWell, I think, back to re-framing what you heard the person say, right? So if there was a pure all-out objection, saying, “Well, this is what I heard you say. Is this the issue?” And usually, there’s three or four ways that you can solve that issue, right? And they usually don’t know that you have maybe a few opportunities.
Jodi KatzWhat do you do if you don’t get the “no”, right? Sometimes there’s ghosting in sales, right, not getting actually any response. What do you do then?
Mary van PraagI think you have to come back afterwards and kind of recollect. I think one of the most interesting things was watching some of my team during COVID. How do you not get a buyer excited when you can see them in person and try the product? Talking about it from screen to screen, half the time, people don’t have samples. I’m like, how do we make this more exciting? How do we bring the brand to life? And so, sometimes it’s a multitude of senses.
A lot of times, we taped live influencers that gave feedback. We do consumer shop-alongs, and we get research. We got some recent research and videos. Sometimes it’s as easy as just taking the buyer to a store so they can see what you’re seeing through the consumer’s eyes. They’re very busy, just like you and I are, right? They have hundreds of emails a day. But yet, sometimes when you can get them close to the customer, and the customer really speaks, is has a resounding impact. So, I think during COVID, it was rough, because it felt like there was such a distance between the interaction, and the listening, and then coming back with a more—I think a better solution. So we tried to do some of that.
Jodi KatzI love that advice. Okay. So I want to switch gears a little bit. You told me that your mom encouraged you to always dream when you were younger. It sounds like she encouraged you to not let anything stand in your way. How does this confidence-boosting early in your life help you navigate CEO life today?
Mary van PraagWell, back to my mom, I think sometimes she had blind confidence. And I’m not suggesting that anyone not have that. But it was a little bit different than my dad. My dad paid for my college education while I worked. I was never given anything. But he said, “You can go to any state school. And I want you to get good grades and make it worth it.” And I was always very conscientious of that.
But on the other side, my mom was such a great influence, because I remember her. She dropped me off in front of this jewelry store and said, “You can get that job. You can do anything you want to do.” It wasn’t about getting good grades and thinking through all the practicality. It was a little bit of this blind confidence. I call her the internal optimist. So she always taught me young at heart and young at age that to have confidence in yourself, and that you can achieve anything you want. Now, whether that was true or not will still be told. But I always felt this inner confidence that just came from working hard and having an ambition, and actually supported myself through a lot of network people that just gave me true advice. I was very fortunate to have coaches, mentors, and even sponsors that really gave me the advice I needed to hear. I didn’t always like to hear it. Sometimes it’s hard when you peel away the onion and you kind of have to go raw.
I think one of the best pieces of advice that I got from a mentor of mine was, “Find your leadership voice and make sure it’s authentic to you and your style, because that will make the difference.” And so, I really took that to heart. And I often give that advice to people as they’re kind of navigating their career, is find that voice and that authentic leadership that you have, because that will make the difference.
Jodi KatzSo what is that authentic leadership voice that you have? How would you define that?
Mary van PraagYeah. Mine is about—it’s interesting, because I’m one of those people that like to come into situations that require change and transformation. And mine’s going from good to great and getting that out of people. I love to lead teams. Nothing makes me happier than to lead teams and lead people, and leave a legacy on a business, but more importantly, the people, and have them see in themselves things that they wouldn’t have normally thought they were able to accomplish. And I feel like I have a fantastic team.
And I’m just the coordinator of that, right? I’m the coordinator of these experts. I love to bring disparate points of view together to get the betterment out of all. And I use the theme, you win as one. And there are no heroes on the field. The champions are made through teamwork, and quite honestly, when the games are really hard. So mine’s about this authenticity around going from good to great, and finding out how one can do better.
Jodi KatzI love this idea of change and transformation. It makes me think of the things that are really hard for me, which is the limbo, the knowing where we are now and knowing where we can get to. But the waiting in between.
Mary van PraagMm.
Jodi KatzRight? Things take time, right? Evolution takes time. Skill-building takes time. And I have to force myself to be patient with my impatience. Once I have that vision, that stretch is very, very taxing for me. It just eats away at my brain. I’m wondering if you have any tips for me.
Mary van PraagI would say, measure your success along the way. Don’t wait till that big milestone when you’re done, because you’ll lose energy. And understand the race you’re racing. I was very driven when I was younger. I would say, don’t think about the destination so much. Enjoy your journey, and create those milestones along where it can keep you rejuvenated, right? You want to have this sense of buoyancy along your journey, create joy, or otherwise, you and I would hate jobs, right? So I think you have to create those milestones along the way.
Jodi KatzLet’s switch gears and talk about, in your career journey, you’ve had, I think, 17 different moves. Is that right? [Laughter]
Mary van PraagYeah. I usually don’t like to disclose that. Nor, if any of my mentees are on the phone, I would never recommend that to anyone. That’s a lot of moves. And quite honestly, you don’t have to do that today.
Jodi KatzRight. Because we can work differently now, right?
Mary van PraagYes. Yes.
Jodi KatzOkay. So you’ve had a lot of professional moves. But I would imagine a lot of wisdom was gained along the way, right? You have a suitcase full of wisdom now, or multiple suitcases.
Mary van PraagMm-hmm.
Jodi KatzWhat would you recommend to somebody who is actually being asked to move around a lot professionally who doesn’t really have an appetite for it?
Mary van PraagI don’t think you have to today as much, right? Now, I won’t take anything away from my career path or journey, because I wouldn’t have the knowledge, skills, experiences, or, quite honestly, this fantastic network of people that I call very strong roots. But I think be really great at your job, and try to find a city or cities you really want to live and spend your life in, and create your life there.
I look back and I think, ooh, this is my third time actually living in LA. Now, fortunately, I really loved it the first two times, so it brought me back. I don’t think you need to do that. Or don’t go into sales, because early on, my career journey was around being close to customer. And whether I was a district manager or a region manager or a VP of sales, I did a combination of headquarter roles and being close to customers. So I lived in Bentonville, Arkansas. I lived in Chicago near Walgreens. I did all those moves to be close to customer, and then work in the headquarter office of the companies that I work for.
But I don’t think you need to do that anymore, I really don’t. And I think COVID changed a lot. I think there’s this flexible workplace, and people can travel. And I believe in that very much. And I try to allow that for my team. And I think it’s working very well, so.
Jodi KatzEarly in my career, I worked for a brand that had their own retail stores. So I had a lot of friends who were district managers and territory managers. And they were signing the lease and then all of a sudden breaking the lease to move to a different part of the country, and then do it again and do it again. And it was very challenging for them to—they really just had to pick up and go with their dog, right? It was living light, I guess, in a way. It’s really nice that now people in those roles can be rooted somewhere and then, yes, get on a plane, get in the car, go do their job, but not have to literally pick up the bureau every few months.
Mary van PraagWell, I think the good thing that came from it is I don’t have a fear of change, and I kind of take change head-on. And even when it’s super unknown.
Jodi KatzWhat’s the most unknown that you were faced with?
Mary van PraagIn terms of moving? Well, I moved to Canada, so I did a—I call that a very—even though people say, “Hey, it’s like a continuous part of the United States,” it’s not. There’s a separate language there, separate laws, very different culture. I moved to Canada. I remember when they first said, “Would you like to do Montreal? Because we’d prefer that you be in Montreal.” So I said, “Well, I need to go there for a weekend.” Well, it had kind of three strikes. One is, everybody spoke French and wouldn’t speak English to me. And I thought, “Ooh, that’s not gonna work so well, because I can’t actually help people in that way.”
And the second one, it was a Friday night, and we went—my husband and I went out. Nobody was out. We found out later it was because there was a hockey game. Oh, and it snowed, and it was April. So I came back, and I said, “I’d love to do this Canada GM assignment, because I know it’s really important to my career, but I’d love to do it in Toronto. How’s that sound?” And because we had two offices, one in Montreal and one in Toronto, I was able to get to Montreal every two weeks and spend time with that team, but I was home-based out of Toronto.
And it was funny, because when I was gonna get a language tutor, they said, “Mary, don’t botch up our language. We speak English. You help us, we’ll help you.” And so, I actually love Canada, and I still have some of my very, very close friends that I worked with that are still some of my dearest friends and advocates today. But that was a great example of coming into a culture where I really knew nothing about it, and I really immersed myself in the culture, the industry there, the customers and industry associations, and I fell in love with it. I hope to maybe vacation there a couple weeks out of every summer, so.
Jodi KatzLet’s talk about some trends happening that challenge our leadership, the one of quiet quitting, or whatever we’re calling it these days. It’s really fascinating for me to think about this, because I’m just one of those people that I don’t want to settle, you know? I want to always grow and move and be learning and evolving. So it’s perplexing to me. But then I also know not everybody has as much agency, or they don’t feel like they have as much agency in their decision-making as maybe they’d like to. So I’m curious if you have a point of view on what leaders can do if they feel like they have this sort of phenomenon happening in their organization.
Mary van PraagWell, I think first, you have to start with the culture and if the culture needs transformation. You want engagement into the culture and the alignment with the organization and where it’s going. And sometimes, not everybody’s cut out for that, right? And that can be okay. I would say you can be a great leader in one place and not so great in another. It’s all about the environment. But I think in a company like Milani, we’re relatively small. I always say, everybody matters. And your ideas and the impact that you have on the outcomes is very noticeable. And first of all, we don’t have armies and armies of people. So it would be quite noticeable if somebody was quiet quitting. I think their peers would probably notice it first.
But I think it’s all about engagement and trying to motivate people towards common goals. And I always say, hey, the competency is what gets you at the seat at the table and gets you into the company, your competencies, your unique skills. But then it takes every single one of us to get things going. And we all have the same dedication to our consumer. And I find that if we saw somebody that was quiet quitting, it would be really noticeable and probably—I hope what I’m saying is, if somebody’s quiet quitting, that they opt out sooner versus later, because that has a negative impact on everyone else.
Jodi KatzYeah. I think about the small team environment, because that’s the one I’m in, and when somebody’s not contributing fully, it’s their friends in the organization that are in pain, right? Because they’re trying to pick up the slack. And that’s really awful to see, right? Because...
Mary van PraagYeah. And sometimes you don’t know, though, Jodi. Sometimes people could be having a personal opportunity or a problem, and sometimes it’s just saying, “Hey, are you okay?” and finding out what’s happening, if they choose to share that with you. It could be outside circumstances, too. And we all go through those times where we have a period where, ooh, this is just too much right now. So I try to listen for that. I ask my leaders to find out who do they think’s a flight risk and why, and what can we do about it?
Jodi KatzThat’s a really good point. It’s like when we’re driving, and you have a frustrated driver on the road with you. You don’t know what their day was like, right? You don’t know where their head space is.
Mary van PraagMm-hmm. Yeah. And assume good intent, right? I always say assume good intent.
Jodi KatzSo let’s talk about the topic of success and defining success. When I was younger in my career, I just assumed that success equaled money. I was just very one-dimensional. I didn’t have it then. And I thought that that was the most important thing. So let’s go way, way, way back, like Revlon days, early in your career. If someone asked you, “What does success mean in this industry?”, what would you have said back then?
Mary van PraagWell, I think it’s very personal. I always say, whether it’s success or living your life with integrity, you have to do what’s important to you. To me, mine was about surrounding myself with teams, team that I thought we could transform things, this aspect of, as I mentioned to you—I’m one of those leaders that likes a good turnaround story. And they’re not always easy, and they come with a lot of hardship. But I enjoy that. And I thrive. I thrive when I see other peoples’ success. And I like when a team is really aligned. I love a good debate. I love that.
But to me, success is about those milestones. To me, it’s about gratification. I’ll look back hopefully some number of years from now and say, “What will the legacy of my team and my leaders be on this business?” And I hope we all have a common definition of what that is. And it’s to make the company as great as it is able to be through our efforts. And importantly, that we all have this fun together. I believe in building these relationships and helping foster growth through one another. And I hope to vacation with these people 10 years from now. It’s almost like a club you went through. You have to separate, yes, is being a leader a super hard job?
And I think it’s in one sense entwined in your spine, but at the same time, you have to separate the who from the what and be a whole person. And to me, it’s the success is living your life with integrity, whatever that might be. And in my case, it was about thriving partnerships, relationships. And I love business, right? I love business, and I love companies, and driving results, I guess, is the best way to say it.
Jodi KatzOkay. So how do you separate the who from the what, right? Because you are you. You are—
Mary van PraagYeah, but I’m not Mary the CEO in all my hats, right? First of all, I don’t like to be the center of attention. In fact, I don’t need to have the loudest voice. And I have said this to my team many times. I am by far not the smartest person in the room. That’s not me. My job is to get the best out of everybody. And so, I think there’s this CEO mentality that enters. But I don’t think of it that way. I try to approach people one-on-one and just, I’m Mary, by the way. I’m not Mary the CEO. Yes, that happens to be my job, but I like to think about people and inspiring people, and getting to know people as humans, and not as the CEO. The CEO just happens to be what my title is.
Jodi KatzDid someone teach this to you early in your career? Because this point of view, I would imagine, wasn’t really popular when you were watching CEOs run their businesses when you were earlier on in your career.
Mary van PraagMm-hmm. I would say it has evolved over time, right? And I think I mentioned to you, I’ve had some great coaches and mentors. And one coach in particular, I think, has talked about, sometimes you can have all this accumulated stress from all the things that are going on. And it could really pounce you down. And so, you have to release that tension sometimes. And whether it’s through breath, or meditating, or quite honestly, just talking a walk with my dog some days, you’ve just got to let it blow off.
I always call it letting the air out of the balloon before the balloon pops, and then separating that. And then finding things that you enjoy to do outside of work, because we are these whole people. Not everybody really wants to hear me talk about Milani 24/7, nor my family, nor my friends. Just having those outside interests. And quite honestly, I think we all need a break sometimes from our heavy job duties.
Jodi KatzSo, Mary, since I saw you last, I’m gonna report that we are gonna get a dog as a family.
Mary van PraagYou are? What kind?
Jodi KatzWe want to get a Bernedoodle.
Mary van PraagOh. Those are beautiful. I love dogs. You know that.
Jodi KatzI know. We were talking about this a lot when I saw you. And we just flipped the switch and decided to focus on the amazing things and not the hard things. And my kids are very happy. So we’re gonna look to get the dog over the summer. That seems like a good time, yes.
Mary van PraagOh, good. Well, I want to see pictures. And get a good crate, and take it to puppy training.
Jodi KatzYes, lots of training. So, this is so fun, Mary. And I want to thank you for your wisdom and being so honest with our fans today.
Mary van PraagThank you, Jodi. It’s great to talk to you and everyone else.
Jodi KatzSo, this concludes our third episode of the year in our C-Suite quarter. Thank you so much for joining us. As always, make sure you’re following us on Instagram to stay up-to-date on upcoming Lives and all the fun we have along the way.

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