We’re going back to the basics with my guest this week, Robyn Watkins. Starting her journey as a prospective makeup artist turned product developer, Robyn always had a knack for beauty. After being mentored by some of the greats, she set her sights towards developing products the classical way, and eventually towards launching her own company, Holistic Beauty Group!
|Announcer||Welcome to Where Brains Meet Beauty®, hosted by Jodi Katz, Founder and Creative Director of Base Beauty Creative Agency.|
|Jodi Katz||Hey everybody, it's Jodi Katz, your host of Where Brains Meet Beauty® Podcast, welcome back. This week's episode features Robyn Watkins. She's the Founder and Chief Product Developer of Holistic Beauty Group. And if you missed last week's episode, it featured Sarah Willersdorf. She's a Managing Director and Partner at Boston Consulting Group. Thanks for listening.
Carey, I'm so excited to be here with you again.
|Carey Channing||Me too. We have to introduce this episode with Robyn Watkins.|
|Jodi Katz||You know what's cool about this? You're not going to believe it, but guess where I met Robyn?|
|Jodi Katz||On LinkedIn.|
|Carey Channing||So I have a question, I need to know the second phase of these relationships. So you mentioned on last week's episode with Sarah Willersdorf that you also met her on LinkedIn. What about Robyn? Have you met her in person, or was this interview the first time, like speaking face-to-face?|
|Jodi Katz||I connected with Robyn on LinkedIn, because that's just what I do, right? This is where my people are. So I'm very social on LinkedIn, and just want to meet as many people as possible in our business. And Robyn and I just made time to talk, which is something else I do on LinkedIn, and I know it sounds really random, but people are willing to just make an appointment. I mean, a scheduled time to chat. I don't have any ulterior motive, I'm not looking to sell them anything, I just want to get to know people. So Robyn's one of those people, and we had such a nice chat, and I asked her if she would be on the show because I just adore her, and she said, sure. So, LinkedIn is kind of like the surrogate now for being at events and traveling, right? I don't get to do that, but I usually meet all these fascinating people when I'd be traveling and going to events, so I use LinkedIn in that way right now.|
|Carey Channing||I'm happy you're sharing that, because LinkedIn is one of those things that I'm sure people poo-poo about, or like, "Oh, I don't necessarily need that," and it's almost like when your mom tells you to do something, you don't want to hear it, but then if your best friend says it, you're like, "Okay, fine." So for all those listeners that just don't think that it could be a useful tool, Jodi is the LinkedIn queen now and has built so many relationships, and all it takes is that reach out. So write that down in your notebook.|
|Jodi Katz||Yeah, I meet so many interesting people, and I think I'm a pretty generous networker, so I always, when I like someone, I offer to connect them with anyone that's important or viable for them, and I want to see the people that I like succeed as well. So it's a great place for me. It's interesting, because I don't have a personal Instagram, or Facebook, or a TikTok, or Pinterest or anything, which is kind of funny because I'm in this business, but I have the agency accounts, and of course, my team's super active and well-informed, but I personally am not, so this is really the only personal social media that I have.|
|Carey Channing||And also, I've known you long enough to know that you've not always been a fan of quote, unquote, networking at events, and it really can be so overwhelming, and you just kind of have to be the loudest voice or the most outgoing person to thrive in those situations. So LinkedIn is much more obtainable for those who feel really overwhelmed by the networking that happens at live events.|
|Jodi Katz||Thank you for reminding me of the progress I've made, Carey, because I kind of forgot that I really used to hate networking. I didn't even understand it, but now I just view it as a way to meet people that I like, and a way to help them advance their goals. So I have a new definition of it and a new outlook on it, and that's how I got to meet Robyn.|
|Carey Channing||I love that. So, quickly on Robyn, I don't want to give everything away about the episode because you're about to hear it, but what I think is adorable and I have a picture in my head, is she always wanted to be a makeup artist as a kid. You asked her that question right off the bat, and her mother sold Avon, and I just have this picture in my head of her watching her mother be an entrepreneur within the beauty industry, and then subconsciously digesting that, and then however many years later, that's exactly what Robyn's doing.|
|Jodi Katz||It's so cool. I love these stories.|
|Carey Channing||So this episode is for anyone who is interested in the career journey of going from the corporate life, and then wanting more freedom and having a different lifestyle, and branching out on your own. So tune in, I think you'll enjoy this episode. Let's roll episode 191.|
|Jodi Katz||Hey, everybody, I'm so excited to be here with Robyn Watkins. She is the Founder of Holistic Beauty Group. Welcome to Where Brains Meet Beauty.|
|Robyn Watkins||Hello, everyone.|
|Jodi Katz||Robyn, I'm so glad that you're here with us today. I'm so excited to do this podcast recording. Before we get into the deep dive into your career journey, I have one question for you that's about our industry, and one question for you about you. So when it comes to the industry, and you've been in this business for a long time, what events or things are you reading that are super important for you in your career right now?|
|Robyn Watkins||I'm really loving what I'm reading at BeautyMatter. I think the articles that they release are very relevant, from an events perspective. Obviously, that's been kind of not happening in the last year, but I really look forward to MakeUp in LA when that does come back.|
|Jodi Katz||Okay, that's good to know, because I think a lot of people who are listening are like, "Oh, I want to be Robyn someday," so I want to give them some of tools in your toolbox. So everyone, subscribe to BeautyMatter, learn what's happening. Kelly's very talented over there. Okay. So Robyn, about you, this is my favorite question of all time. When you were a kid, and let's be transported to the 12 year old version of yourself, someone asked you, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" What's your response?|
|Robyn Watkins||Yeah, back then, I wanted to be a makeup artist. I wanted to be a makeup artist, I was doing makeovers on all my friends. Growing up, my mother sold Avon, so I had all the makeup, I had all the products, and people would be lined up in my bathroom to get their makeup done, their hair done, a bubble bath, whatever. I was just doing all the beauty stuff. So that's where I was at 12 years old, yes.|
|Jodi Katz||And was your mom successful at Avon? Was it a passion for her?|
|Robyn Watkins||It was a side hustle for her. So, I'm the youngest out of five, my mom took the train every day to commute to work, an hour both ways, and she sold Avon on the side just as a side hustle to make more money, and was good at it, and had a lot of customers. And my first job was actually putting together her orders, and she paid me in product, so that's how I was introduced to product.|
|Jodi Katz||Oh my God, the whole cycle of getting paid in products, it started in your house, right? That's so awesome. That's so sweet. So what a great exposure to the beauty industry by watching your mom be... You're basically an entrepreneur when you're doing that type of work, so what a, what a cool vantage point.|
|Robyn Watkins||Yeah. I mean, I got to really see products coming in, and as I would bag those orders, I would look at the packaging, I would read the ingredient listing, I would smell the bubble bath. I could tell when they changed a shade on a product, and I was just really into the behind the scenes, not really understanding what product development was back then, but I just knew I had a knack for it, and I just wanted to be a part of it in some capacity.|
|Jodi Katz||Do you recall what your favorite products were back then?|
|Robyn Watkins||Mm-hmm (affirmative). There was a lipstick that Avon, it was a particular shade called Burgundy Brew, this kind of deep burgundy lipstick is kind of in vogue again, but me and my friends, we would fight over this lipstick. It was that, and definitely the Skin so Soft bath oil, we used to love that product. And I think when it comes to hair product, it was just African Pride everything. And so, those were some of my staples back then.|
|Jodi Katz||That's so awesome. Well, fast forward, and you've been a product developer for many years. I think that if I look at your LinkedIn, it's 18 years of product development, am I right?|
|Robyn Watkins||Yeah, close. Yeah, I'm getting close to 20, almost 20 in the game, so it's been a while. It's been nice ride for me, for sure.|
|Jodi Katz||Okay. So what does it mean to be a classically trained product developer? Can you explain that to me?|
|Robyn Watkins||Yeah. So the way that we develop products today is very fast, very fast paced. We are collaborating with a lot of different labs that really bring us and showcase a lot of technologies, and a lot of formulas that are already kind of put together. And what I've seen is that today, probably in the last, maybe six, seven years, a lot of brands, sometimes we kind of pick up formulas, we see a formula that we like, we're like, "Yeah, we like that. We're going to tweak that innovation, and we're going to go to market quickly."
When I talk about classic product development, I mean from the ground up. So customizing formulas based on your consumer, doing your consumer research, figuring out your benefit territories, from there, putting together key ingredient platforms and an ingredient technology to really help support those benefits, right? And then from there, really ideating on new textures, and creating new textures, and figuring out the delivery system of that product. Is it going to be in a click pen? Is it going to be in a roller ball? Is it going to be in a mist or an oil form? And really, it's about blue sky kind of style of development, that's kind of not happening as much anymore. And so, I really feel blessed to have been kind of that in-between generation where I was really trained by the Boomers out there that were kind of starting to retire, really showing me how to put together a product from scratch, and what that really looks like, and all the steps that need to be taken to get there.
Early in my career, I was really exposed to a lot of innovation, so I worked on, for example, gel nail polish, right? So what would the world be like without gel nail polish, but it took a lot of iterations and a lot of work, right? A lot of fighting for, "No, this is going to be the new way. People are really going to walk away from nail polish because this is more convenient." And a lot of that type of stuff I did earlier in my career, and I think it really helped to inform the type of product developer I am today, which is really somebody who looks at a product from the ground up and not looking to just cascade trends, but looking to create products that are really going to change people's lives and the way that we consume products going forward.
|Jodi Katz||So I've been in a lot of meetings with clients, and at my agency, we don't touch product development at all, right? That's not our expertise, but we are very early on in the process, right? So we are in those meetings when some clients are like, "Oh, here's six things that we bought. We're making it feel like this one, smell like that one, have the properties of that," right? It's just like everyone's borrowing from each other. I guess I'm curious, does the classic work happen anymore, or is everyone just borrowing and iterating?|
|Robyn Watkins||It's such a good question. I have to say, it's both. It depends what kind of brand I'm working with these days. I see on the pharmaceutical end and more on the high science technology end, we are still seeing classic product development, no doubt. We're looking at new technologies, we're figuring out ways to really, we're actually looking at COVID and what's happened with COVID, and how we tested, and the whole RNA thing, and how does that intersect with products, and how is that going to change certain ways that we deliver certain things into the skin even, right?
That's classic product development. It's still happening, it's just at a very slower pace because we're in this D2C age where we have to compete to be seen, and be the first to market a lot of times. We are benchmarking, right? That whole process you just laid out, that's benchmarking, and no one likes to really admit that they do it, but a chemist, a lot of times, they're going to ask for a reference. And so, sometimes you do have to show, "Okay, well, it's this type of cream, but for the body, but I want to make it for the scalp or something else," right? And so, benchmarking does definitely happen, but blue sky product development, custom product development from the ground up, totally still exists in more high technology arenas.
|Jodi Katz||And have you had mentors or guides through your career who really inspired the way you think and approach about product development?|
|Robyn Watkins||Absolutely. Absolutely. One of my mentors is Dr. Peterman MatraversHe was one of the heads of product development and R&D out of beta, back in their heyday. He has so many patents, and just a whole way and philosophy around natural product development. He taught me a lot about natural ingredients and botanicals, and how to really utilize that and still creating a lot of efficacy. So I really learned a lot from him, he's still in my network today, enjoying life. Dr. Bob Bianchini, who's former Coppertone, Neutrogena guy, he's also in the folds really helping me to continue to look at technology in new and interesting ways.
And I also was mentored, early in my career, I worked for Douglas Little. You might know Douglas Little from Heretic, right? The master perfumer. And I had an early opportunity, I was working with him at his old brand, D.L. & Co., doing fine fragrance development, and he really exposed me to the creative process, the creative part of product development, the inspiration, going to India and being inspired by saffron, and coming back and doing a whole saffron accord at the fragrance house, and looking at silks and different tapestries, and things like that, and letting that inform and inspire your package. So he was truly a creative. He still is truly one of the most creative people out there, who I got to learn from as well.
|Jodi Katz||And what about you mentoring? Have you been mentoring product developers?|
|Robyn Watkins||Absolutely. I mean, I take so much pride in the women, and some men as well, who I have had the opportunity to either mentor, or they've been on my teams. There's a young lady, by her name is Sierra Brown, and you know she's now at Sephora, who I worked with and got to mentor. I've mentored people who are now working at La Mer, and product development all over the map that I'm just so proud of, and they always come back and tell me, "If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have known how to do real product development, not just taking things off the shelf and just benchmarking, but really taking apart what it is that we're after, like what problems are we looking to solve, and how can we do that in a way that's truly authentic, that's truly innovative, that is also going to be mindful and conscious of the consumer?" And that's what I'm here for, and I hope to mentor more and more people in the future.|
|Jodi Katz||So with regards to benchmarking, I guess I'm curious about how that serves the end user, the customer. In the work that I do, and it sounds like the work you do in the classically trained product development, you're really thinking about satisfying a need or filling a need for the customer, right? Making her life easier, better, more harmonious, whatever it is. Can we service the customer and serve her well, if we're a brand that's just benchmarking?|
|Robyn Watkins||I do believe there is a possibility for that, if you do innovate in your technology. If you're a benchmarking just purely textures and form, I think that's okay if you're really doing something disruptive from a benefit standpoint and from an ingredient standpoint. So for perfect example, there are products that have been around forever that in textured hair, we've always used to really clean our scalps, because people with textured hair, we don't typically use dry shampoo. So if there is a product that has been tried and true, that works, but it's still not readily accessible and it's still not being targeted, and it's still not being pretty much marketed to you as a consumer, I think that's an opportunity to create something that is accessible, that does meet the benefit needs states, that is good for post-workout or things like that, that is very clear about what it is and what it can do, especially as we start to move through new generations.
So in that aspect, I don't think it's not serving well, I think that it's really bringing things, making it more accessible. So I think it's all about your intention, what you're trying to do, and I'm all about the ingredient technologies and making sure that what you're doing in a product does solve problems. And so, if you're using a very well-known or familiar form, whether it be a serum, or a mist, or an essence, or anything like that, I think that's still okay, as long as we are really looking at the demographic, we're looking at the consumer, we're really asking ourselves, "What are we doing in this product to really help this consumer, and make it so that it works, so that way, this consumer uses it and is loyal to it again and again as well?" It's not just a one-time purchase.
|Jodi Katz||So Robyn, I want to talk about, shifting from, I guess, the security or culture of being full-time in corporations, to then starting your own business. Why? I'm an entrepreneur myself. Why would you do this yourself?|
|Robyn Watkins||Oh my gosh, I did it for freedom. I wanted to liberate myself. I was never really cut out for sitting in meetings all day, about meetings, and all of that, and I've always been kind of an entrepreneur at heart. For me, it was about freedom. I have two kids, I have two sons, and when I decided to drop out of corporate beauty, I was just burned out, honestly, and I also knew that I knew a lot. I felt like, and this isn't anything cocky, but I got to a certain point in my career where I felt like I knew more than the people next to me and the people around me, and certain people we had to go to for approvals, and I was like, I was doing this five years ago. I was doing clean beauty back when I was working on SPARITUAL, I was doing certified organic, I was cleaning up parabens. I was doing all this stuff so long ago, and I felt like I had a unique skill set that if I just had a few clients, I would be all right.
And I just had confidence in myself, it's that old school like, "Believe in yourself," talk, that really can take you far. And for me, it was really just about freedom. I just didn't want to be tied down with playing that corporate game any longer, and I felt like I had so much to give, and there were so many brands that I felt like I could help them navigate through the product development landscape, and that's just what I did. And it wasn't really a business decision, it was more about freedom and lifestyle, and designing the life that I wanted to live. I wanted to be able to wake up in the morning and have breakfast with my kids, and see them at night. I wasn't seeing my family before. I just wanted to be present as a mom and as a wife, and just have some sort of balance, which is an interesting topic in itself, but that was my intention and why I chose to do the entrepreneurial thing.
|Jodi Katz||Well, it's very similar to my origin story as an entrepreneur, because I wasn't a mom yet, but I wanted to be one. I was looking around myself and the company I was working at and I'm like, "There's no way I could be the mom I want to be, and work here." I just didn't think it was a possibility. And at that time, I guess, 15 years ago, I didn't think that there was going to be another company to go to, right? My only option was, "Well, I'll just figure this out and just make it on my own." So I really believe in your purpose of freedom. I think that there's something really beautiful in being in control of your destiny, right? And being at the wheel, driving to the left one day, to the right the other day, driving it straight, driving it backwards, wherever it goes, but knowing that you're leading that. Once you do this, though, you're basically unemployable. It's really hard to imagine ever going back to having a boss.|
|Robyn Watkins||So true, and I have so many clients. I love my clients, I am so grateful for my clients, but I have clients that after certain engagements, they're like, "Can you join us full-time?" And it's always a no, it's always a no, and I always feel so bad, but I could never go back. It's just like, no, I just could never.|
|Jodi Katz||So let's talk about scaling as a small business. This is something that Base Beauty is like, we grow and then something happens, and it's a little step back or half a step back. We have a huge year, tons of hiring, and then it's like, "Oh, okay. Another setback." The scaling and maintaining that level of scales has been really challenging. I haven't been fixated on it, but it's like, "Oh my God, here we go again." It's like, "Here we go again." So what has that been like for you in terms of figuring out what size of business you want to be, how much work you want to be doing?|
|Robyn Watkins||You really helped me kind of look at that when we had our first conversation, which was incredible, and I'm so grateful for it. You gave me so much insight. But wow, I started off, I would say as more of a lifestyle consultant, right? Where I had a few clients, could kind of come and go as I please, I could travel still, that was three years ago. Now I'm at a place where I have a small team, I did scale up pretty early, brought in two hires, and I think what I learned along the way is it's the quality of talent, and having the right talent. It's not really about having the biggest team for me, it's about having people who are experts in product development, or project management, or sourcing, or packaging, or regulatory and that side of it.
And so, really making sure for me that I'm growing my team is my number one priority. Right now we are hiring, we're bringing on new people, but as far as the scale goes, I see us going maybe about three teams within my organization where we're helping brands across beauty, skin care, and also wellness. So those are my plans, and I see us getting large, but it is very difficult because it is all dependent on the type of quality of talent that we can attract, pretty much.
|Jodi Katz||And what does it take to succeed at your company?|
|Robyn Watkins||Yes, I would say definitely dedication, a knack for research, definitely the ability to present ideas and concepts, the ability to forecast and understand what's going on, the ability to understand technology and how it sort of relates on the skin, and also understanding consumers. It's very much, I would say a technical brain. It really calls for somebody who's technical and also very marketing-savvy at the same time. So it's both sides, creative and technical.
And so, those are the people who succeed with us, and the people who are super organized, you have to be so organized to be a product developer. We have to know where every single piece of the pie is at the same time. We have to know where the package is, where the formula is, where the label is, where the liner is, where the unit box is, and everything in between, and what changes are being made on the brand side, what messaging changes marketing wants to make, and how this then impacts claims and legal. It's so much that we have to do, and we take it all and we do it behind the scenes, and we make it look a little too easy sometimes, but that's a part of the job too.
|Jodi Katz||Robyn, you segued perfectly for me, because that's what I wanted to talk about, because I commiserated think we have a shared experience where our teams are so good at what they do and love it so much, but are healthy, reasonable people that we make the work seem like it's just so easy to do, therefore, is it great work then if it's easy to do? What's exceptional about it if it's easy to do? The work is exceptional, but we're so at ease with it because we've been doing it for such a long time, and we train people to be awesome and we train people that they don't need to be hysterical. A problem doesn't have to be a crisis.
So, and sometimes I think the client either doesn't understand the work enough to know what went into it, so thinks next time there's a thing like this, it can be done in a minute, right? This is actually a challenge, I think a little bit of the drama, and sometimes it's good because it reassures people that we're working hard. So tell me your thoughts on this, because this was such an interesting thing that we talked about when we were together on our intake call.
|Robyn Watkins||Yeah, absolutely. This is a tricky subject, because I think with so much exposure to so much product over the course of my career, things do come to me quick, and yeah, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's not good value or it's not worth whatever we are charging for our rate. I think that taking the time I think to do the due diligence is what I like to do. It's like a lot of times, things do come really easy to me and I do happen to know where to go, and I kind of know the path forward, it's just driving different cars with different toolboxes, and different wrenches in the road along the way, but I kind of know the path.
And so, it does make things come to me a little easier, but I feel like I've paid my dues, I've done so much work. I mean, I've done so much work in my career to kind of get to this point, but it is a tricky thing because a lot of times for product development, we see people who are like, I get calls from people all the time and they're like, "I think I'm going to consult," and they may have like five years of experience and I'm like, "Do what you want to do." I always tell people, "Hey, follow your desires." However, I know I have presented product development to be this very fun, graceful thing, and it is a lot of work. It's constant work and struggle, and I think that being able to problem solve is one of the biggest attributes that I actually do have, and I think that just comes with time and having problems to solve.
So it is a tricky thing, Jodi. I think it's just hard to explain really, but I do think we tend to make things look too easy and that could sometimes backfire, but what I've noticed is that for those clients who we've done an engagement, they think they can sort of take it over after we've handed over a deliverable. I happen to have a lot of times people come back, people coming back a year later after trying it on their own and they're like, "Hey, you know what? We need you again," and that's common for me, because it's much harder than it looks, product development.
|Jodi Katz||What I wrote down for my notes is, "How to present the worth of the work, when we're at ease with the work." Right? So I think that's the equation to solve for, to make sure that for the client, who if they're hiring you, they don't know how to do it themselves. Right? If they could do it themselves, they wouldn't need you, the same with us. So just be, I guess, reassuring the client of the worth, and you talked about things coming easy to you. We've been trying to articulate this at Base Beauty too, the right answer is such a reflex for us because we're so indoctrinated, right? we have so much institutional knowledge about the industry, we have so much knowledge about the customer, every type of customer. So these things are really truly reflexes. My guess is it's a reflex for you as well.|
|Robyn Watkins||Yes, absolutely. That's a great way to put it. I love that. That's how I feel exactly.|
|Jodi Katz||So when it's a reflex, what we need to do is almost for the client, then slow it down. We have the reflex, and then I think this is what you're talking about in terms of due diligence, then we still have to go back in time, back in the process, and create all the steps, identify all the steps, pull why this strategy is giving us this answer. Even though we're still getting to the same place, we have to outline it, otherwise, people who don't have that reflex really don't understand, and they can't sell it internally. So that's what we've been working on, trying to unravel this.|
|Robyn Watkins||Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, and it's also a good teaching moment for the client too, and then it helps to then reinforce the value, so I love that approach. I mean, I might have to steal that from you.|
|Jodi Katz||Yeah, take it, and the other thing we're working on also, I'm not sure exactly where it's going to land, but part of the success of our reflex, the reason why reflexively, we feel like yeah, we get to that right answer really quickly, is because we are a very empathetic group. I think that's a trait that's shared by everybody on the team, that we actually feel the customer, right? The customer who has rough feet, we know what's in her head, we know what she's shopping for, we know how it impacts her day, night, when she's taking off her socks, when she's trying other products. So this empathy, I think really leads our reflex, which is why I think part of the magic that happens, and my guess is it's probably pretty similar in your team, because you're really feeling that customer's experience.|
|Robyn Watkins||Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we call it just being intuitive with our clients, and that's really saved a lot. That's really, really helped us to not have really, really hard discussions. I could feel when the client is not in love with this formula, or isn't super happy with this direction, or maybe wants to pivot, and I'll say it for them, and I think that just makes them feel so safe with us, because we understand. It's such an intuitive part of it too, that really plays into the work that we do, which has helped us tremendously.|
|Jodi Katz||So my last question for you is really just something I've been thinking about from my own family perspective. What do your sons think is cool about your job?|
|Robyn Watkins||Yeah, so it's so wild to see them so excited about it. I mean, my oldest, he's almost 14, and he remembers back when I was pouring candles and making home fragrance products, and he's a candle junkie and a scent junkie. My oldest really loves to snoop over my shoulder and see what I'm up to, and I think he's just really proud when he walks down those aisles with me and he's like, "Didn't you work on this?" Because I have a bin in my closet at the office with all the things we're working on, and he's starting to become familiar with some of these brands, and I think that just is really cool for him.
For my youngest, he's five. He loves to test products. So, I'm constantly, as you know, I do a lot of product development for textured hair and he's always like, "Can you moisturize my hair? Do you have something to test? "And so, that's the fun part for him, and sometimes I'll give him formulas that have been rejected, and he'll add water to them and start whipping them up, and he loves to do a little cosmetic chemistry in the bathroom, and that's the fun part for him.
|Jodi Katz||Oh, Robyn. That is so cool. I love that they get to share in the fun and excitement of your business. I mean, that's as much a gift as clients paying the bills.|
|Robyn Watkins||Yeah, it is, it really is. And you never know, I mean, they might grow up one day to want to stay in the business. We'll see what happens. It's going to get interesting in the future for men too.|
|Jodi Katz||Well, Robyn, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with my fans today. We were so excited to be able to shine a light on product development too.|
|Robyn Watkins||Thank you for having me.|
|Jodi Katz||And for our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this interview with Robyn. Please subscribe to our series on iTunes, and for updates about the show, follow us on Instagram @wherebrainsmeetbeautypodcast.|
|Announcer||Thanks for listening to Where Brains Meet Beauty®, with Jodi Katz. Tune in again for more authentic conversations with beauty leaders.|